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ondes martenot
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Dana!! It's an honor and a pleasure to have you drop by!
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1712
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Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: My homemade Martenot controller
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Dana Countryman wrote:
It's cool that so many people are interested in my homemade Martenot controller.

Dana -- Fantastic job! I never knew the part about having depressions to define pitch. Looks like you have a pretty good bend range around each note. Wow!

On little point has eluded me -- how do you keep the ring/string from slipping with respect to the 10-turn?

Thanks for the videos and photos. Great stuff!

Very Happy

Ian
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Dana Countryman



Joined: Feb 03, 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Planet Fred

PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: My homemade Martenot controller
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frijitz wrote:
Dana Countryman wrote:
It's cool that so many people are interested in my homemade Martenot controller.

Dana -- Fantastic job! I never knew the part about having depressions to define pitch. Looks like you have a pretty good bend range around each note. Wow!

On little point has eluded me -- how do you keep the ring/string from slipping with respect to the 10-turn?

Thanks for the videos and photos. Great stuff!

Very Happy

Ian


Hi Ian,
I was worried about the string slippage at the beginning, and contemplated some kind of bicycle chain-type of system. Later, I struck on the idea of the radio dial concept, which someone on this list wisely thought of, too!

I put a spring in a break in the string, underneath the instrument, so it keeps the tension at all times. I first tried the smallest wire rope I could but, but it wasn't flexible enough. I then tried some fairly thick nylon cord, and it still didn't move freely enough. Finally, I hit pay dirt with 1 mm nylon cord - the kind used for Venetian blinds! I got a bunch of it at my local fabric store.

But I haven't had any slippage problems at all. I did have to oil the pulleys, once I had them in place, as they made a terrible racket. But a few drops of oil later, and it was quiet as a mouse!

I got the pulleys from Edmunds Scientific. They were bigger than I really wanted, but it worked out great for the ratio of turns vs. the turns on the 10-turn 100K pot.

-dc
http://www.danacountryman.com
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JohnLRice



Joined: Jul 29, 2008
Posts: 71
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks great, Dana! Cool

hey, I just thought of another anti-slip idea in case you run into a problem. Not sure how long it would last but if you were to take the string off and then coat the inside of the pulley with a thin coat of silicone calk (like bath tub sealer) it might be really effective. Or maybe some other compound might be better that I'm not thinking of. Maybe just 'flat' or 'krinkle coat' spray paint?

Sheesh, what's with me? Rolling Eyes You've had it non-slip for a long time now but I keep bugging you with non-slip solutions! Laughing
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: My homemade Martenot controller
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Dana Countryman wrote:
...I was worried about the string slippage at the beginning...
Finally, I hit pay dirt with 1 mm nylon cord ...

Thanks, Dana. That's very interesting. I can see how enough tension would provide sufficient sticking friction, but I couldn't see how you could avoid creep. I guess your solution combines just the right amount of stiffness and flexibility. Very nice.

Re ribbon controllers -- did you ever consider making a sort of quasi-fretting system similar to the OM? I'm wondering about a strip of wood with notches mounted next to the ribbon. The force to feel the notches would be orthogonal to the ribbon, similar to the OM depressions, but in the front-to-back direction rather than up-down.

Very Happy

Ian
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MyPasswordIs123456



Joined: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 25
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Dana, I've been watching this project with great interest.
It's very generous to provide information on build construction.
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numbernone



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Posts: 477
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So what is the circuit it is controlling? Just the pot as a divider? A trimmer maybe, so that you can keep it scaled to your indentations?
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Dana Countryman



Joined: Feb 03, 2009
Posts: 41
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: My homemade Martenot controller
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frijitz wrote:
Dana Countryman wrote:
...I was worried about the string slippage at the beginning...
Finally, I hit pay dirt with 1 mm nylon cord ...

Thanks, Dana. That's very interesting. I can see how enough tension would provide sufficient sticking friction, but I couldn't see how you could avoid creep. I guess your solution combines just the right amount of stiffness and flexibility. Very nice.

Re ribbon controllers -- did you ever consider making a sort of quasi-fretting system similar to the OM? I'm wondering about a strip of wood with notches mounted next to the ribbon. The force to feel the notches would be orthogonal to the ribbon, similar to the OM depressions, but in the front-to-back direction rather than up-down.

Very Happy >>

Ian


Hi frijitz,

I probably wouldn't tackle another method to do what I'm already doing, but it would certainly be possible to add fretting to some kind of home-brew ribbon controller. Go for it!

One thing that I'd really like to add to what I'm doing, is pressure sensitivity, in terms of adding brighter timbres, when placing more pressure on the fretboard. I've thought of a slightly hinged fretboard, attached to a spring-loaded slide pot. It really couldn't be more than 1/4" of a push down, or it would be too cumbersome. 1/8" of an inch would be ideal....

- dana



edited by v-un-v; Dana, html was a little out so I corrected it. Makes it easier to read through. Tom :¬)
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widdly



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm wondering if the pulleys even necessary? Perhaps with enough tension from the spring and you could have just used 3 or 4 pins and have a wheel on the potentiometer.
Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quad



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wouldn't it work by having a wide roll, the cord is not a loop but both ends of the cord is fastened on the roll. The ends of the cord is made to wind on to the roll in opposite directions so when one is wound the other is unwound and vice versa. The pot is attached to the roll. I suppose this would work without slipping, or am i just spacing out here?
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Dana Countryman



Joined: Feb 03, 2009
Posts: 41
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quad wrote:
Wouldn't it work by having a wide roll, the cord is not a loop but both ends of the cord is fastened on the roll. The ends of the cord is made to wind on to the roll in opposite directions so when one is wound the other is unwound and vice versa. The pot is attached to the roll. I suppose this would work without slipping, or am i just spacing out here?


Guys!....

Trust me, it's not slipping. Plays great.
Hope to post one more video in the next week or so.

- Dana
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numbernone



Joined: Aug 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dana,

Could you specify which pulley from Edmunds you used? I got caught up in nostalgia looking at that site, and went off looking for the wind up flying bird, and moon landing wallpaper.

I think I can also say for everyone here to give our warmest regards to Mr. Perrey.
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: My homemade Martenot controller
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Dana Countryman wrote:
I probably wouldn't tackle another method to do what I'm already doing, but it would certainly be possible to add fretting to some kind of home-brew ribbon controller. Go for it!

Yes, I'm going to. Soon. The softpot is only 50 cm long, so I'm going to have to compromise a bit on note spacing vs total range. I'm going to start with 15 cm/oct spacing, which gives a bit over three octaves. I'd like to have four octaves, but that gets you down to only 1 cm per semitone. I've already tried putting a bar along the ribbon and running my finger up and down. It actually feels very good! The ribbon by itself is too much free-floating. Nothing at all to orient your hand/finger. The reason I want to go with a ribbon is that I want to be able to use more than one finger, for more speed and technique.

Quote:
One thing that I'd really like to add to what I'm doing, is pressure sensitivity, in terms of adding brighter timbres, when placing more pressure on the fretboard. I've thought of a slightly hinged fretboard, attached to a spring-loaded slide pot. It really couldn't be more than 1/4" of a push down, or it would be too cumbersome. 1/8" of an inch would be ideal....

Funny thing. I just tried that a couple of weeks ago. I made springy hinges using material from the 3.5" floppy guards (nice stuff, whatever it is). I was going to detect position magnetically, as I have done for the mouthpiece and bender on one of my wind controllers:
http://home.comcast.net/~ijfritz/sos_close.htm
The difficulty I ran into was that the support board had too much flex, so the travel was not uniform along its length. Detecting a 1/8" change over a couple of feet is not trivial! If you use metal to get enough stiffness, then the mass may limit the speed at which you change the CV.

But I'll be very interested in what you work out. I hope you will continue to post your results -- great stuff!

Very Happy

Ian
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Dana Countryman



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Posts: 41
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbernone wrote:
Dana,

Could you specify which pulley from Edmunds you used? I got caught up in nostalgia looking at that site, and went off looking for the wind up flying bird, and moon landing wallpaper.

I think I can also say for everyone here to give our warmest regards to Mr. Perrey.


Hi,

Here it is:

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_3115400

3115400 Pulley, Single Sheave, Aluminum 50mm $3.95 ea.
I used four of them. That way I had room underneath for the tension spring.

I will talk to Jean-Jacques on Saturday, and give him all your best!

- Dana

***
Check out my new Sci-Fi music video with Jean-Jacques Perrey:
"Funky Little Spacegirl"!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4FEet-mRXc
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

love the demos, dc.

is the pot driven directly by one of the pulley shafts?

and does the spring keep the ring from moving fully to the left or right?
or are the pulleys mounted in a trapezoid with bottom pulleys mounted wider than the top?

how about using kevlar chord, like the ernie ball volume pedal uses?

that's enough q for now...
thanks for sharing!
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Dana Countryman



Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Pulleys and Pots
Subject description: ondes martneto controller
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bugfight wrote:
love the demos, dc.

is the pot driven directly by one of the pulley shafts?!


Yes, that right. I drilled out the center of the pulley wheel to accomodate the shaft of the pot. Then, I glued a knob I had in my parts box, to the pulley with 2-part epoxy. So it has a set screw to keep it in place and is removable.


bugfight wrote:
and does the spring keep the ring from moving fully to the left or right?
or are the pulleys mounted in a trapezoid with bottom pulleys mounted wider than the top?!


No, the four pulleys are just set up in a rectangle, with the top two just high enough to allow about 1/4" of height of the string over the fingerboard.

bugfight wrote:
how about using kevlar chord, like the ernie ball volume pedal uses?

that's enough q for now...
thanks for sharing!


No, the 1 mm nylon chord works great for me, and is easily obtainable.
More to come soon...

- Dana
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Quad



Joined: Dec 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dana Countryman wrote:
Quad wrote:
Wouldn't it work by having a wide roll, the cord is not a loop but both ends of the cord is fastened on the roll. The ends of the cord is made to wind on to the roll in opposite directions so when one is wound the other is unwound and vice versa. The pot is attached to the roll. I suppose this would work without slipping, or am i just spacing out here?


Guys!....

Trust me, it's not slipping. Plays great.
Hope to post one more video in the next week or so.

- Dana


I can see that in your video, I'm sorry I didn't mean to question your construction. I just presented a diffrent idea.
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bugfight



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hehe don't be offended, us diy types are always trying to improve things...

so the spring doesn't run into the pulleys? is it shorter than the ring?

also, i've never seen the insides of one of those 10 turn pots. i'm wondering if their construction makes it better than using a conductive plastic 270degree pot and using different radius on the drive pulley or a gear drive. ...

thats a great idea to use brads for the black keys. did you measure for those and the holes just by distance and then calibrate the output? it definitely sounds well tuned...
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugfight wrote:
hehe don't be offended, us diy types are always trying to improve things......


Sorry if I came off offended, - I'm not! But the slippage thing, does not seem to be happening. Therefore, I don't need to change anything (for now.)

bugfight wrote:
so the spring doesn't run into the pulleys? is it shorter than the ring?...


Since the spring is centered exactly underneath the instrument, it corresponds to the top finger ring. So, where the finger stops at each end, is the same place where the spring comes up against the pulley wheels, on each side. Therefore, there's nowhere else for the spring on the string to go. Worked out to not be a problem, at all.

bugfight wrote:
also, i've never seen the insides of one of those 10 turn pots. i'm wondering if their construction makes it better than using a conductive plastic 270degree pot and using different radius on the drive pulley or a gear drive...


I never knew that multi-turn pots existed, until Roger Arrick suggested it to me. What a great solution! Before that, I briefly considered gearing up the ratio of pulley turns to the smaller pot shaft, but I couldn't come up with a good plan! The system I'm using with the Q125 is working. I can "tune" the voltage the Q125 sends to the multiturn pot, by adjusting the controls of the Q125. With careful adjusting, I can get the pitch to correspond to the finger depressions. I'm going to replace the original single-turn 100K pots on the Q125, with the same multi-turn kind of pot I'm using inside the instrument. That way, I can "fine-tune" the pitch tuning a little more accurately. I briefly considered purchasing a couple of vernier knobs to do this, but they seem to be about $50 each (!!) At $15 each, for my multi-turn pots, this seemed to be the more economical way to go.

bugfight wrote:
hats a great idea to use brads for the black keys. did you measure for those and the holes just by distance and then calibrate the output? it definitely sounds well tuned...


I can't take credit for that! Mr. Martenot devised that, as well as this whole system. The finger depressions and brads were brilliant to get concert pitches. Also, there's enough variance with one's finger, that it's not QUITE perfect, which is actually what you want to sound like a human, and not a midi machine. I calibrated all the marks using a pitch pipe - the key barbershop quartets use!

Hope to have this thing completed this weekend.....

Thanks for your interest, guys!

- Dana
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magman



Joined: Feb 04, 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Being new to these forums, I've found this thread fascinating (I'd not even heard of the Ondes Martenot to start with, so I only started reading out of curiosity).

Even so, I've had a few thoughts about possible extensions to this mode of control.

First, how about going duo-phonic. It might not be too hard to run two lines in parallel (especially as you can get dual wheels that are typically used for sash windows). You may have to mount the potentiometers separate from the wheels, but this should be practical. You then have the performance option of playing both notes with one finger, or using two fingers on one hand that can provide you with a few notes difference that you can vary - potentially to a hand span. A stereo pot on the Volume control would cope with both lines, or a joystick could vary the two lines volume independently.

Going to another extreme, it should be possible to build something like a guitar or sitar that uses the same techniques. With a bit of clever wood work, you could probably get something like an electric guitar look, using the frets as the note positions, the whammy bar as the volume control and position any other controls on the guitar body close to the hand on the volume control. Again, duo-phonic could be an option.

Just a bit of a brain storm, but I thought it worth sharing.

Magman
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dana Countryman wrote:

Sorry if I came off offended, - I'm not!


not at all, no worries.

Quote:

But the slippage thing, does not seem to be happening. Therefore, I don't need to change anything (for now.)


i don't think anybody wants you to change yours, yours clearly works well already. these are suggestions for us to try... prepare yourself for some red-headed stepchildren...

Quote:

...Worked out to not be a problem, at all.


cool. thanks. are the two bottom pulleys just there to adjust tension?

Quote:

...
I can't take credit for that! Mr. Martenot devised that,
...


ah my mistake, i knew the original had depressions, but never having seen one. i though you came up with the brads. still yours is way cool...
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugfight wrote:


cool. thanks. are the two bottom pulleys just there to adjust tension?


Yes -- to adjust tension, plus originally I had an arc'ing arm that was attached near the spring. It had a potentiomenter at the end of the arc, that controlled pitch. In my first YouTube video, you'll see what I mean.
I've abandonded that method since....

If I had it to do over, I could make this a LOT smaller by eliminating the hollow area underneath where the keyboad sits on top of. The keyboad is there, of course, purely for visual reference, although it could certainly be played separately.

As someone else suggested, it could be done with just two pulleys and a spool-like take up reel built into each of the pulleys, with tension springs inside each pulley. The Prof provided a very cool link to old radio dial cord and pulley systems. Something very much like that.

Currently, I'm incorporating the electronics from a Q125 directly inside the instrument using the top two tuning controls, and adding input and output jacks.

- dana


html edit updated by v-un-v :¬)
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Sine



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The ondes has a very snappy volume control, in the youtube video in this thread you can clearly see light coming from underneath the controlpanel.
So I suspect the ondes used some form of lightbulb / fotocel construction for the volume control.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I too had a go (and failed miserably too!) at making a mock-ondes using two pieces of string and a cotton reel or two connected to a couple of pots. There is a photo of it here somewhere on EM- but I can't for the likes of me find it. Shocked

I figured that the best way to do the volume is to get hold of a Cokin graduated neutral-density filter, connecting one end to a routed block of wood. light could be shown through it to a photocell receptor. Figuring out how to hold it in place is the hardest part of course!

Since I tried the cotton reel approach, I then though probably the best way to make an Ondes Martenot manual is to use Meccano. There's a really nice little Mecanno CAD called "VirtualMEC", that cand be found here;

http://www.virtualmec.com/default.aspx

It's a bit pricey, but allows one to 'try things out'- and of course it will also make a BOM, so parts needed to build a homemade Ondes, can be sourced from places such as eBay etc. I still haven't bought this software (it's on my current hit-list), so I'm afraid, as usual, I have nothing to show here at present (in order to save, I need to buy it), but the device needed could easily be created with this stuff (so could the volume control too).

PS, Dana, your example is awesome! Very Happy and welcome to the forum too!!
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frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Dana's Martenot Project
Subject description: ribbon w/frets
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Dana Countryman wrote:
... but it would certainly be possible to add fretting to some kind of home-brew ribbon controller. Go for it!

Oh, OK!

The basic idea works fine, the main limitation being the rather high level of friction on the Softpot device.

A quick demo. In the middle you can hear the only pitch jump on the track. This is just the ribbon driving a VCO, no control of amplitude.

The last note shows how much drift the S/H has (~2 mV/sec).

Very Happy

Ian


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