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ondes martenot
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slabman



Joined: Sep 01, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Ondes from an inkjet Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Every time I change cartridges in my inkjet printer, I can't help noticing that the print head moves smoothly along a precision machined rod, driven by a belt-drive and pulley arrangement. When it breaks, as it surely will, I plan to see if I can turn this into an Ondes-type controller, with the belt/pulley driving a potentiometer. I may also have a go at mounting some kind of note triggering assembly on the moving part, for one-handed operation. It's only an A4/US Letter sizr printer, with maybe 15 inches of travel,but that should be enough for an octave or 2. An A3/Tabloid printer might be good for 3.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just for curiosity's sake, I posted this a couple of years back (scroll down a bit. Of course it never worked, but it gave food for thought!

There's some other shit-hot stuff (not mine of course) going on the this first thread too Cool

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=martenot&t=7710

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-9217.html

Still considering VirtualMEC! Cool
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Minimalist



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice work on the Ondes controller Dana, I'm just wondering if you can outline the circuit your using to connect the 10 turn pot to the Q125 module, I'm novice in the diy area but it seems there must be some kind of voltage source involved ?

Thanks for sharing this.
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Minimalist wrote:
Nice work on the Ondes controller Dana, I'm just wondering if you can outline the circuit your using to connect the 10 turn pot to the Q125 module, I'm novice in the diy area but it seems there must be some kind of voltage source involved ?

Thanks for sharing this.


It's really simple!

Run the pitch out of your midi interface (Q104) to the bottom input of your Q125. Now, patch the output of that bottom section, into the input section at the top of your Q125. Run the output of that section to your Q146 Normalization module, which goes to all your oscillators.
Now, the bottom (offset) control of your Q125 will sweep from ultra-low to ultra-high, pitch-wise.
Replace this bottom pot (offset) with a 10-turn pot, which you can relocate inside your "Martenot".

Now, the upper two pots on the Q125 (the other offset and gain) can be adjusted to fine-tune your pitch, so that you can tune all the "notes" of your ring controller to match the keys of a keyboard. I tune the low "A" to the upper "A's", matching to the Q123 Standards module's A440.

Make sense?

Good luck!

- Dana

P.S. Final YouTube Martenot video coming SOON!
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Minimalist



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Dana

That makes perfect sense I'll give it a try . I was looking through google patents and Maurice Martenot brings up some pretty interesting Ondes Martent Patents. Apart from the controller aspect there is a great one about the speaker/gong/string resonator things that seem to be a huge part of the sound. US patent 2613568

And thanks for all the interesting stuff on your website over the years.

Marcus
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Ira Kraemer



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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Hi;
I just discovered this forum and have information on the Ondes Martenot. I own one, a model 6 which was the last model produced and it dates from 1987, serial no. 354. It was one of the last ones produced as the company discontinued manufacturing in 1989. It is the only solid state model produced.

The one I have is currently not operating properly and has always had various problems. Currently I can not get any decent audio output.
As far as the ring controller goes, it is a nylon cord which is a loop attached to pulleys at each end of the keyboard and controls a multi turn potentiometer, not a variable capacitor. With the cord having a 3 point contact will the 2 pulleys and the pulley attached to the pot, there is no slippage. The Ondes is a self contained instrument in that it contains its controllers, oscillators and amplifier. The only external part of these instruments are the diffusers (speakers.)

The expression key is of a very interesting design. It is like a telegraph key with the contacts enclosed in a small leather sack filled with graphite powder. As the key is depressed the graphite is displaced and the resistance decreased resulting in an increase in volume (a crescendo)

The keyboard floats on a nylon cord suspension so that it can be played with vibrato. A slight pitch variation can be accomplished on any key by vibrating the keyboard from side to side. This is accomplished by a very low resistance wire wound pot which is specially designed for this instrument.

Many of the components for Ondes are specially designed and are not available through part suppliers.

Hope that this sheds some light on this fairly complicated instrument

Ira Kraemer
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot Demo, Part Three
Subject description: Dana's Instrument is now complete.
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Ira Kraemer wrote:
Hi;
I just discovered this forum and have information on the Ondes Martenot. I own one, a model 6 which ...

Hope that this sheds some light on this fairly complicated instrument

Ira Kraemer


Thanks for that valuable info, Ira! I heard from Lorin Parker, who has been inside an earlier model, and it was a variable air capacitor on the earlier models.

OK, I finally finished my Martenot Controller, and posted a new video today. I demonstrate the newly-added volume control, and give an overview of the instrument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px0LhGmJ5pM

Best to you all!

- Dana


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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Dana Martenot Web Page
Subject description: I made up a web page, documenting how I built this Martenot Controller...
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Now that my Martenot Controller is complete, I made a web page, showing how it was built.

I hope it helps some of you with your own Martenot projects.

http://www.danacountryman.com/martenot_project/martenot.html

Best,

- Dana Countryman
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yusynth



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Ira, it is very valuable information.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey everyone! I just found this piece played on the Ondes Martenot by Thomas Bloch. I have the original recording on a compilation by Bloch on a Naxos CD in my record collection, but I have never seen this piece, by Olivier Messiaen, played live. It's absolutely beautiful.

The strange harmonics created at the end of the piece are really quite hauntingly magical- but even more remarkable is that they are coming from the Ondes martenot itself! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and while we're at it (and sorry for the OT);

Glassharmonica!

(Really worth the watch- especially as it includes Alan Alda from MASH! Cool )

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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Ira Kraemer wrote:
Currently I can not get any decent audio output.


Ira, first up, a very warm welcome to electro-music.com! Very Happy


I would imagine that your problem may lie with a dry joint of some sort, or even the output socket itself? A dry joint isn't a difficult or expensive fault to fix, although it is best to have it looked at by some one who knows how to solder.

Would you mind explaining the functioning of the resonator cabinets the stand near the instrument? How do they work? The stringed resonator looks fairly self explanatory, but the case that contains a 'gong', how does that work?

Tom :¬)

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Ira Kraemer



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:07 am    Post subject: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Very low audio output
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Hi Tom;

In looking the instrument over, I think that the audio power output transistors may be shot, although nothing seems to smell of burn. I do have a schematic of this instrument which I purchased from the grandson of the inventor for big bucks. They are all in French, but the values of resistors, capacitors and transistor numbers are all there. Those audio output transistors are not hard to obtain, so as soon as I have the time I will replace them, hopefully that will restore its output.

I do not have any of the original diffusers (speakers) as you might have guessed they are impossible to find as they haven't been made in 20 years. For the main speaker I use a old 8 ohm 2 way shelf speaker. It worked fine until the output problem occurred. I built my own "metalique" diffuser using an 18" Chinese made wind gong. I drilled a 3/8" hole near the top and used a modified compression horn driver to drive the gong.. It worked, but not with a lot of volume, however the original metalique diffuser does not have a lot of volume, so I guess I am close to the original sound. I don't know how the Palme transducer is driven. I would assume that the tuned strings are also driven by some sort of device similar to a compression horn driver.

Ira Kraemer
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Martenot Tube Oscillator
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Ira Kraemer wrote:
Hi Tom;

In looking the instrument over, I think that the audio power output transistors may be shot, although nothing seems to smell of burn. I do have a schematic of this instrument which I purchased from the grandson of the inventor for big bucks. They are all in French, but the values of resistors, capacitors and transistor numbers are all there. Those audio output transistors are not hard to obtain, so as soon as I have the time I will replace them, hopefully that will restore its output.

I do not have any of the original diffusers (speakers) as you might have guessed they are impossible to find as they haven't been made in 20 years. For the main speaker I use a old 8 ohm 2 way shelf speaker. It worked fine until the output problem occurred. I built my own "metalique" diffuser using an 18" Chinese made wind gong. I drilled a 3/8" hole near the top and used a modified compression horn driver to drive the gong.. It worked, but not with a lot of volume, however the original metalique diffuser does not have a lot of volume, so I guess I am close to the original sound. I don't know how the Palme transducer is driven. I would assume that the tuned strings are also driven by some sort of device similar to a compression horn driver.

Ira Kraemer


I'd love to see a schematic for the TUBE version of this instrument. I'm in the process of trying to recreate an authentic sound of the original Martenot, for use with my my new "Martenot" controller.....

I'm hoping to come up with a tube-based oscillator, which can be voltage-controlled. I want beautiful sounds, not screeching -- which rules out a couple of recent tube oscillators.

There are some excellent free examples from Japanese musician Takashi Harada at:
http://www.archive.org/details/Harada

There is a unique CONTOUR to the sounds created by the classic Martenot....

-dc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dana, have you seen my schematic that I posted for the Jenny Ondioline?

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-227193.html

Not quite the Ondes, but close, and valve-based Smile

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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Dana, have you seen my schematic that I posted for the Jenny Ondioline?

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-227193.html

Not quite the Ondes, but close, and valve-based Smile


Hi -- thanks!
Yes, those scans are from the Computer Journal article, which I have.

I have two Ondiolines, but neither is working. My repairman has had one of them for over two years! Monday is supposed to be "D-Day". I either get a repaired Ondioline, or my broken instrument back.

I have a full schematic for it -- in French!

Still looking for a CV-controlled tube oscillator for the martentot...

Best,

- Dana

P.S. Dayfan's Ondioline restorations are beautiful!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dana, I'm sure that you also appreciate that much of 'that sound' also comes from the amp and cabinets-the resonant frequencies of them etc. But yes, I'd love to get my hands on some schematics.

I've been seriously thinking of getting my hands on a French Connection- just so my daughters can learn how to play. £1400 is a lot of money though.

The ability to add vibrato by wobbiling the keyboard back and forth is a nice feature. I'm sure this could be done by resting a keyboard assembly on largish rubber bands (under a bit of tension to control the wobble dampning). Hall effect transistors could then be used instead of a pot in order to modulate the frequency?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Edit; that should read "dampen the wobble"- not the other way round. I'm typing on my iPhone you see! Very Happy
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Dana, I'm sure that you also appreciate that much of 'that sound' also comes from the amp and cabinets-the resonant frequencies of them etc. But yes, I'd love to get my hands on some schematics. ?


I'm in the process of bugging some (hopefuly helpful) owners of actual Martenots for their schematics... Fingers crossed. I don't really want to be working with 150-300 volts, but I may have to....

v-un-v wrote:
I've been seriously thinking of getting my hands on a French Connection- just so my daughters can learn how to play. £1400 is a lot of money though. ?


Yes, it is a lot of money, which is why I built my own for $150. Smile

v-un-v wrote:
The ability to add vibrato by wobbiling the keyboard back and forth is a nice feature. I'm sure this could be done by resting a keyboard assembly on largish rubber bands (under a bit of tension to control the wobble dampning). Hall effect transistors could then be used instead of a pot in order to modulate the frequency?


I have two Ondiolines, so I've studied how the manual vibrato works. I've toyed with suspending a keyboard on springs, but haven't seriously pursued it. Let me know if you do...


Best,

- Dana

***
Hi Friends,

"Destination Space" - my new CD with Jean Jacques Perrey is out NOW!
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http://www.danacountryman.com
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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Ira Kraemer wrote:

The keyboard floats on a nylon cord suspension so that it can be played with vibrato. A slight pitch variation can be accomplished on any key by vibrating the keyboard from side to side. This is accomplished by a very low resistance wire wound pot which is specially designed for this instrument.


I'm wondering if the same can be achieved using hall-effect transistors to control the vibrato rather than a wire-wound pot?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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v-un-v wrote:
Ira Kraemer wrote:

The keyboard floats on a nylon cord suspension so that it can be played with vibrato. A slight pitch variation can be accomplished on any key by vibrating the keyboard from side to side. This is accomplished by a very low resistance wire wound pot which is specially designed for this instrument.


I'm wondering if the same can be achieved using hall-effect transistors to control the vibrato rather than a wire-wound pot?


Try it! Wink

-dc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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v-un-v wrote:
I'm wondering if the same can be achieved using hall-effect transistors to control the vibrato rather than a wire-wound pot?

It is the way aftertouch was implemented on some old monosynths such as the Roland SH2000


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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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yusynth wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
I'm wondering if the same can be achieved using hall-effect transistors to control the vibrato rather than a wire-wound pot?

It is the way aftertouch was implemented on some old monosynths such as the Roland SH2000


Interesting!

I'm seriously considering building a leaf-spring mounted keyboard for manual vibrato of the keyboard, as in the Martenot and Ondioline.

I wonder - what kind of circuit could this kind of transistor use for voltage control, and why would it be better than moving a slide pot back and forth?
The reduction of the amount of friction would be the only reason I can think of...

-dc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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Dana Countryman wrote:

I wonder - what kind of circuit could this kind of transistor use for voltage control, and why would it be better than moving a slide pot back and forth?
The reduction of the amount of friction would be the only reason I can think of...-dc


Hi Dana,

Actually if you have a look to the datasheet of some usual Hall effect linear devices (be sure to pick a linear one because most of the hall effect devices are ON OFF devices) http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/U/G/N/3/UGN3503LT.shtml it is just a matter of using a JFET OPamp to buffer (and if necessary amplify) the signal at the output of the hall device.

The advantage are, as you said the lack of friction and also (and it is very relevant) the absence of aging of the detector to the opposite of a potentiometer track...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've also figured out the pulley system which is used by Dana is almost identical to the original Ondes version, looking at the original patents. (But I guess everyone else has already figured that one out by now? Embarassed Very Happy )
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ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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