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ondes martenot
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Information on its construction and design
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yusynth wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
I'm wondering if the same can be achieved using hall-effect transistors to control the vibrato rather than a wire-wound pot?

It is the way aftertouch was implemented on some old monosynths such as the Roland SH2000


Ahh- yes! I didn't know that actually- but very cool Cool

Thanks!

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Martenot Tube Oscillator
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Dana Countryman wrote:
I'm hoping to come up with a tube-based oscillator, which can be voltage-controlled. I want beautiful sounds, not screeching -- which rules out a couple of recent tube oscillators.


You currently have my full sympathies! I'm really hoping that the Oscillator King himself; Mr Ian Fritz may offer us a solution for this?...... Ian? Wink
(Although the 'Teezer' could be a lot of fun too!)- but yes...sweet tones we want.

(As you've probably guessed, I'm getting a bit obsessed with this Martenot thing. I absolutely love the original!! Cool )

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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Martenot Tube Oscillator
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v-un-v wrote:
Dana Countryman wrote:
I'm hoping to come up with a tube-based oscillator, which can be voltage-controlled. I want beautiful sounds, not screeching -- which rules out a couple of recent tube oscillators.


You currently have my full sympathies! I'm really hoping that the Oscillator King himself; Mr Ian Fritz may offer us a solution for this?...... Ian? Wink
(Although the 'Teezer' could be a lot of fun too!)- but yes...sweet tones we want.

(As you've probably guessed, I'm getting a bit obsessed with this Martenot thing. I absolutely love the original!! Cool )


BTW, last weekend, my Dad and I re-drilled 4 of the finger depressions of the fingerboard to more accurately play on pitch. On the "Ave Maria" video, a couple notes were a bit sharp, due to inaccurate spacing of a couple of the depressions. Now, it's corrected and plays much more on pitch. Take THAT, you Theremin players! Wink

I'm going to record an mp3 of the revised tune, and post it on my Martenot progress page. The YouTube videos' audio, is a bit distorted at times, and weird harmonics show up, due to the poor quality of YouTube audio.....

-dc

-dc
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Ondes Martenot
Subject description: Martenot Tube Oscillator
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Dana Countryman wrote:

I'm going to record an mp3 of the revised tune


Hey man, don't take offence to this, but please drop that DX Rhodes sound, as it does your Ondes no favours! Shocked Wink Laughing A nice harpsichord accompaniment me thinks. Cool

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
The strange harmonics created at the end of the piece are really quite hauntingly magical- but even more remarkable is that they are coming from the Ondes martenot itself!

How does his work? He isn't playing the ribbon at that point. What is producing the sound?

Very Happy

Ian
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ian, it's diffuseur no.3- "Metallique".

Basically it looks to me, like a small to medium sized gong with a resonator behind it. I'm not yet to sure whether the resonator is electro-acoustical based or uses an electromagnet to excite the gong. But then can bronze or brass be exited by electromagnetism?- I can't remember. I don't think so. hmm Perhaps a ferromagnetic plate is connected to the gong?

The sound apparently is very quiet. It'll do well if it were contact mike'd up and set in a soundproof box (to prevent feedback).

Those 3 external resonators are very beautiful especially that palm one. Sympathetic strings- like holding the sustain pedal down on a piano I suppose?

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I understand that the sound is coming from the diffuser. But what is driving it? What waveform? Seems to me that it would have to be something other than a Sin wave, unless there is a huge amount of nonlinearity in the diffuser.

Very Happy

Ian
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yusynth



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Yes, I understand that the sound is coming from the diffuser. But what is driving it? What waveform? Seems to me that it would have to be something other than a Sin wave, unless there is a huge amount of nonlinearity in the diffuser.

Very Happy

Ian


This is exactly the case, the onde martenot provides mainly some kind of sine wave, then most of the timbre content is created by the so-called diffusers. The metallic one is based on a gong like foil with rod fixed in its center, the other extremity of the rod comes into contact with a compression loud-speaker engine . This gives eery resonances.

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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Yves! I wonder if the nonlinearity is all in the metal piece, or if some of it comes from overdriving the loud speaker. This reminds me of the Krunkus "dissonator" project.

Very Happy

Ian
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yusynth



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Thanks Yves! I wonder if the nonlinearity is all in the metal piece, or if some of it comes from overdriving the loud speaker. This reminds me of the Krunkus "dissonator" project.

Very Happy

Ian


A bit of both I reckon... Wink I mean the overdrive of the engine creates mainly harmonic partials while the gong foil adds some dis-harmonic overtones.

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Dana Countryman



Joined: Feb 03, 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Martenot Info Page from Dana
Subject description: How I built the Martenot Controller in pics and links...
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undecided wrote:
Hey. My name's Craig and I am a fan of the Ondes Martenot sound and would really love to make one (definitely couldn't afford to buy one)... I was wondering if you had a list of the items I would need to buy and perhaps simplified directions on how to put it together?

Or any links you could send me would be great.

I appreciate your time sincerely Cool

(good work on the video, by the way it sounds great)


Hi Craig,

Nice to hear from you, and THANKS!

I put up a special web page on my site, with tons of info, including where to get the parts. It's at:

http://www.danacountryman.com/martenot_project/martenot.html

If you do build one, please post the info here! Good luck!
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Adrian Freed



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: The real Ondes Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have played and repaired a real late model Ondes Martenot.
The pulley scheme changed over the years but you are all on the right track.
For a simple solution look for "ondestrack" on youtube where a student of mine shows you how to modify gamestrak controllers to build the ring controller.

Some of the questions speculated about in this thread are correctly answered in the wikipedia page on the instrument. One error on that page though: Pierre Boulez is surprisingly listed as a performer of the instrument which I can't yet confirm although he is an important composer of pieces for the instrument.


The ring is of course important on the instrument but just as important is the 2cm expression controller button. Remember also that the ring controls 6 octaves linearly in pitch as does the keyboard. This isn't possible on theremins which coupled with the broader timbral palette available on the Ondes Martenot caused most musicians and composers to favor the Ondes despite all the clever publicity stunts of Theremin.

Two other key design points often overlooked (in the French Connection for example). The keys of the keyboard are not full size. This keeps the instrument compact for the wide pitch range and also allows for bigger
leaps with one handed playing (the other hand is controlling the expression button). Remember this was designed by a cellist. Leaps are not a problem on cellos because you have more than one string.

Also on later models the keyboard can be moved side to side resulting in a beautiful tightly controllable vibrato.

There is no MIDI or synth controller available to my knowledge that captures all these aspects of the Ondes Martenot in a single device.
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: The real Ondes Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Adrian Freed wrote:
For a simple solution look for "ondestrack" on youtube where a student of mine shows you how to modify gamestrak controllers to build the ring controller.

That comes up blank as far as I can tell. Is there another term we could use, or can you give us a link?

Quote:
The keys of the keyboard are not full size. This keeps the instrument compact for the wide pitch range and also allows for bigger
leaps with one handed playing

Can you tell us what the size of an octave is? If you are using an ordinary ribbon and playing with more than one finger you can't go much smaller than a traditional piano spacing and still finger a semitone.

Thanks for your post!

Very Happy

Ian
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Dana Countryman



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: The real Ondes Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Adrian Freed wrote:
I have played and repaired a real late model Ondes Martenot.
The pulley scheme changed over the years but you are all on the right track.
For a simple solution look for "ondestrack" on youtube where a student of mine shows you how to modify gamestrak controllers to build the ring controller.

Some of the questions speculated about in this thread are correctly answered in the wikipedia page on the instrument. One error on that page though: Pierre Boulez is surprisingly listed as a performer of the instrument which I can't yet confirm although he is an important composer of pieces for the instrument.


The ring is of course important on the instrument but just as important is the 2cm expression controller button. Remember also that the ring controls 6 octaves linearly in pitch as does the keyboard. This isn't possible on theremins which coupled with the broader timbral palette available on the Ondes Martenot caused most musicians and composers to favor the Ondes despite all the clever publicity stunts of Theremin.

Two other key design points often overlooked (in the French Connection for example). The keys of the keyboard are not full size. This keeps the instrument compact for the wide pitch range and also allows for bigger
leaps with one handed playing (the other hand is controlling the expression button). Remember this was designed by a cellist. Leaps are not a problem on cellos because you have more than one string.

Also on later models the keyboard can be moved side to side resulting in a beautiful tightly controllable vibrato.

There is no MIDI or synth controller available to my knowledge that captures all these aspects of the Ondes Martenot in a single device.


Hi Adrian,

You're correct -- no current device can *exactly* re-create an Ondes Martenot.... But I'm getting *closer*, in refining my controller/synth combination. I'm making some important improvements right now.
And in fact, I'm designing a midi keyboard that will have the side-to-side manual vibrato AND custom (and adjustable) touch sensitivity.

The nice thing about my setup with the modular synth, is that I can create virtually ANY sound, and control it with the Ring Controller. The original Martenot was quite limited in its' palette of sounds....

More to come...

- Dana
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The real Ondes Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Adrian!
Let me be the first to offer you a BIG welcome

Nice to see you here!

Adrian Freed wrote:
I have played and repaired a real late model Ondes Martenot.
The ring is of course important on the instrument but just as important is the 2cm expression controller button.

Yes. Both the button itself AND the associated tone/voice selectors arrayed about it.
Quote:
Leaps are not a problem on cellos because you have more than one string.

And maybe two bows... Wink

Kind regards, Randal
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bugfight



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: The real Ondes Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:

...
That comes up blank as far as I can tell. Is there another term we could use, or can you give us a link?
...


try ondestrak
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thermionicjunky



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lorin at Electric Western has designed a tube heterodyne oscillator, and he seems open to making it a VCO. He has a gong speaker and is working on the other bits. I would love to see this turn into a modular Ondes Martenot, and he sells his stuff as kits, of course.

http://electricwestern.com/weblog/?p=45
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peglegjoe857



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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am not much for message boards, but I had to get in on this topic and keep it going. Anybody make any progress? Dana's controller definitely interests me and is a step in the right direction, but one vastly overlooked thing is the volume controller. I don't care how tactile the volume controller is with a pot... absolutely no pot will turn fast enough to emulate the ondes martenot volume control.

I am trying to learn more about this "Carbon Filled Leather Pouch". So it is sponge-like, from what has been said, and as this pouch is squeezed the resistance changes. Does anybody have more info on this? What kind of powder/substance would produce this kind of response? Lead infused with carbon? How big is the pouch? How much substance is in it? Is it filled to the brim? Are there any other substances in it? There are two leads in and out of the pouch, and that is all? How close, inside of the pouch, do the leads get?

Does anybody know about the French Connection, whether or not it uses a pot based volume control, or if it uses a leather pouch?
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Sine



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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A pot will not do it ... but a V shaped wedge and a lamp / fotocel will.
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peglegjoe857



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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A photocell. I never thought of that. Usually when I see photocells in use, the light and the photocell are heat-shrunk together, i.e. fender's tremolo circuits. This device would be set up so that when light is shining on the photocell, no sound would pass, and as the key (placed between the cell and the light) is descending, slowly dividing the light till hardly any hits the photo-resistor, the signal will completely pass. Then the spring alone would determine how tactile the response is.

I don't know why I didn't think of this? Probably cause I have only been doing electronics for a half a year, and I don't think logically enough yet!

So this is what you mean in your response? What exactly did you mean, by a wedge?
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Sine



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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It could be anything that blocks light really, even a black to white gradient printed on a overhead transparent or something like that.

Or a shutter made from a V shaped piece of dark plastic.

You might have to experiment with different types of CDS cells, some types are probbably too slow to be useful.
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snufkin



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sounds a bit like a carbon microphone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_microphone
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mikeb



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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:32 am    Post subject: Very inspirational... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The videos posted of Dana's ondes-esque controller were very good.

It's interesting to see someone go through almost EXACTLY the same progression of thoughts that I went through over the past years while working on the Therevox Electro-Theremin.

Seeing Dana's little video reminded me of the simplicity of the ondes solution... and it put a smile on my face seeing him go through a lot of the stages of experimenting that I went through.

For those interested, I have pictures of the build process of the ET-3's from 2008 on my site: http://mikebeauchamp.com/images/show.php?set=building-electrotheremin-v4

Last edited by mikeb on Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Mike. Thanks for the link to your Therevox project. Fascinating stuff mate! Very Happy Cool

Did you manage to break even? Or did you incur a loss?

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IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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mikeb



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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Hey Mike. Thanks for the link to your Therevox project. Fascinating stuff mate! Very Happy Cool

Did you manage to break even? Or did you incur a loss?



Well, the prototypes cost me a lot to make, same with getting all the stuff to do large silkscreening at home. Thankfully, I built myself a darkroom for photography at that same time, so that was perfect. When I did the 12 ET-3's, it worked out to me making money, but under minimum wage for the hours spent on the whole thing. But I think if I factor in how much money I've spent on tools and stuff over the years to make these, I'm sure it's a bit of a loss still.


Mike
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