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Help me build Buchla/Serge style Capacitance Touch Keyboard?
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I prefer discover. The Principal that make things work were always there, someone just came along and discovered a means of generating and exploiting those principals.


That's pretty cool. When the Klee was going through its birth pains here, our fearless leader (Mosc) wrote of how close it was to the concept of the Lunetta. He said "There is nothing new under the sun". I'm sure he didn't make that up, but it really stuck with me.

Thanks for putting the effort into this for the community; you're right, it is hard work. Musta been a labor of love. Very Happy

Cheerios,
Scott

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akrearke



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A side note: "there is nothing new under the sun" comes to us from William Blake. I don't want to cause trouble here. I will pst what I have said for everyone else's sake and hope it works out. Further, I will try to make contact with Rex or Serge or whomever about posting the Foil design for that particular clone. I want to state the the foil layout for this is an original design even thought circuit may not be. Therefore, I will send it privately to anyone who wants it, but will not post it here for the public.
No offense was meant towards anyone and no offense was taken by me.
I want someone to make use of the work, and provide feedback. That is all.
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TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
Teknik, Please look again at what I wrote.

Kind regards, Randal


All what i can say is when we read all your blah is that u posted that first comment abouth 'copyrights and shit' only because u did also plan to come with a similar project probably with the intention to sell them (like you told me in PM on the other site)but despite all your efforts your are the second in row,there was no need to try to block this project the way u did. Sad

instead you should have start yourself an new threat with the anouncement of your new project,that would have left an positive impression of you,now u are stucked with a bad one.
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monokinetic



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Firstly, let me thank akrearke for posting the design. Personally I'm glad he has done this, and considering that the schematic has been available since the days of Synapse I think if Rex/Serge were worried about it they would have asked Cynthia to take it down....

Now without wanting to get into an argument:
TekniK wrote:

All what i can say is when we read all your blah is that u posted that first comment abouth 'copyrights and shit'


I think you mean I, not we? I'm not sure if it is necessary to describe his input as blah.

TekniK wrote:

instead you should have start yourself an new threat with the anouncement of your new project


I assume English is not your first language and I hope you don't feel I'm attacking you, but I'd just like to point out that as this is already becoming a rather heated thread and IMO you should be very careful to distinguish between threaD and threaT. There's a big difference Smile

Let's keep things pleasant as they always are in this supportive and friendly community Smile

David
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for posting these synapse layouts! They look very clean and concise.

You said that this layout is untested, but you tested the circuit to some extent?

I´m wondering if you have a recommendation for key size, ground lines, and spacing in this circuit (and maybe in general)?



I think the quote was Shakespeare´s first, maybe the bible before him.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
maybe the bible before him.


Still coulda been Mosc then, right? Laughing

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[Ecclesiastes 1:9]
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.



[Ambrose Bierce]
There is nothing new under the sun but there are lots of old things we don't know.

Cool

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suitandtieguy



Joined: Feb 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: tkb Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:
Just taking a copyright schematic and posting the layout you developed for copying it to make the job easier for others?!? Just sayin' Embarassed


schematic art is copyrightable, PCB traces are copyrightable, circuits themselves are uncopyrightable, but patentable.

the name of a company is a trademark ... which is a whole different but related kind of IP issue.

if you take a schematic, and redraw it, then redistribute it, you've not infringed on a copyright.

if you take a schematic, and draw a new PCB from it and distribute that, you've not infringed on a copyright. you may have infringed on a patent, but that's rare in this whole analogue synth thing.

if you take a schematic of a Serge TKB, draw a new PCB from it, build it, and write "Serge TKB" on it, well congratulations you've just infringed on a trademark. you haven't infringed on a patent or a copyright, but you're still a dick.

this is something i really do not get about this. a Sallen-Key filter and gain stage with Vactrol control is just that ... a touchplate keyboard with sequencer is just that. why give this DIY cat guff when he's literally just offering this stuff out of the goodness of his heart? this guy is NEVER going to sell one of these, because it's way too much work and he's just doing it because he wants it. yeah he's using the words "Serge" and "TKB" here, but this is obviously completely noncommercial.

of course, interestingly enough .. if someone _were_ to take the PCB artwork he posted here and use that art to build a unit for sale, that _would_ be an infringement. but on Akrearke, not anyone else.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for that explanation, STG - it puts things well into context, at least for me.

I think we should start a petition to have "you haven't infringed on a patent or a copyright, but you're still a dick" officially written into law. Laughing

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akrearke



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks to suitandtieguy for clearing up the legality and ethics issue Very Happy
Thanks to also for the ones who cleared up my literary mistake.
I would like to see this thread remain friendly and stay on topic of the TKB or literature Wink . Things need be said sometimes... and now they have been and all the issues are resolved.

I post the touch plate foil design ASAP.
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, as a little note - I think the layout you posted is for the Synapse 'Touch Responsive Keyboard' rather than the actual TKB (though, if I understand right, you're also working on DIY for that too). Is that correct? So should probably be referred to as TRK?! (oh how confusing!)
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akrearke



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

correct. it is the touch response keyboard. but the operation of it is basically the same. ok, to clarify how this works, just so every knows. the one large foil with the lm3900's is the touch plate circuit, It has individual cv outs for every "key" and a common cv out, there is also individual pulse outs. the pule outputs for each key would be connected to the the programmer board at the junction of the two diodes that, i think, i labeled TKB pulse. this was where a push button was located on the original schematic, in anyway you can find it. it may be that the touch plate pulse outputs have to be connected to the external pulse inputs, I have not built this design yet so i'm not sure. Since this requires a jumper wire, if doesn't work onway try the other. the trimmer on the board is the purple square near the bottom of each stage, this is the same as having just one cv output for that stage. this can be replaced with however many pots for the desired number of cv outputs, but a summer has to be built for each row. buss A is connected on each stage with insulated jumper wire, then finally to the common pulse circuit buss point A. buss B would be used if you were to add the push button switches for each stage. This is what I get from the design description from the original article. It may best to build the the programmer and the touch plate circuits as two separate units, which is how i intended to make make own. The common current source should support the 16 stages. as stated in the article any desired number of stages can be built. If one were to build this as it is layed out you would have on the touch circuit 16 pulse outputs, 16 touch or pressure cv outputs, and one common cv output. On the programmer you would have 16 pulse outputs, 16 push buttons, 16 external pulse inputs, one common pulse output, 4 rows of cv outputs, and 64 cv amount knobs. This would make a pretty serious controller Wink if you were to couple this with one or two of the Serge pulse sequencers (of which, I also have foils designed for) then you mean business.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Areake,

How is this project coming along. I'd really love to start in on a touch keyboard; will you still be posting layouts for the buchla design?
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akrearke



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Everything is built and ready for installation in a cabinet. So i'm just waiting for the money to be available for the aluminum and the wood. I designed a scaled version of the buchla 200e cabinet to work with the 7.5" x 4" panel designs. So far I have a dual 258, Dual 291, Quad 281, dual 292 dual 110 Serge vca and Vactrol Crossfader, TKB with joystick cv quantizer and adder and subtractor, dual 10 band EQ, Analog logic pulse delay gate delay, Cv processor lag processor slope detector and comparator, quad matrix mixer, reverb phaser delay and panner. I have yet to build the 266 and a dual 8 step sequencer. When everything is done I will post pics and audio/video. I will post the foil for the TKB when are some other modules to demonstrate it with.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've etched a board for the Synapse Touch Responsive Keyboard using areake's layout. I've started with the Touch Keys/ Oscillator Driver layout and I've found what I believe are a few errors.

Areake, I'm hoping you can help me clear this up? Looking at the Oscillator Driver layout first, the top Transistor, which is T3 from the schematic, is pointing down on the layout-- but I believe should be pointing up, so that the pin-out becomes c, b, e from left to right. C connects to the 10k Trim-Pot above it and the 10k resistor below it; B connects to the 10k Trim-Pot above; However, E is now connected to the Collector of T2 (right Trannie in layout)-- but this is an error, I believe. Emitter of T3 should connect to the 15K Trim instead. The 10K Trim should connect to the Collector of T2 (on the layout, the 10k Trim currently connects to the 15k Trim). So, these two connections (10k Trim, and Emitter of T3) appear to be mis-matched on the layout.

Can anyone help me confirm this?
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shawn



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
I've etched a board for the Synapse Touch Responsive Keyboard using areake's layout. I've started with the Touch Keys/ Oscillator Driver layout and I've found what I believe are a few errors.

Areake, I'm hoping you can help me clear this up? Looking at the Oscillator Driver layout first, the top Transistor, which is T3 from the schematic, is pointing down on the layout-- but I believe should be pointing up, so that the pin-out becomes c, b, e from left to right. C connects to the 10k Trim-Pot above it and the 10k resistor below it; B connects to the 10k Trim-Pot above; However, E is now connected to the Collector of T2 (right Trannie in layout)-- but this is an error, I believe. Emitter of T3 should connect to the 15K Trim instead. The 10K Trim should connect to the Collector of T2 (on the layout, the 10k Trim currently connects to the 15k Trim). So, these two connections (10k Trim, and Emitter of T3) appear to be mis-matched on the layout.

Can anyone help me confirm this?


Yup you are correct. The layout isn't correct for the oscillator driver.
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shawn



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is also a 4.7k missing that should be connected to ground and T2's base/T1's collector.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shawn wrote:
There is also a 4.7k missing that should be connected to ground and T2's base/T1's collector.


I fixed these two things and wired the osc driver up to one of the touch control circuts, but couldn't get any response. I was using a 3"x4" copper clad board for the touch controller, taped to a larger 4"x6" copper clad to ground.

I'm guessing there are also errors on the touch controller circuit and/or my touch pad is the wrong size/space.

Am away from my desk for a week however...
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shawn



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
shawn wrote:
There is also a 4.7k missing that should be connected to ground and T2's base/T1's collector.


I fixed these two things and wired the osc driver up to one of the touch control circuts, but couldn't get any response. I was using a 3"x4" copper clad board for the touch controller, taped to a larger 4"x6" copper clad to ground.

I'm guessing there are also errors on the touch controller circuit and/or my touch pad is the wrong size/space.

Am away from my desk for a week however...


For a week? That would drive me crazy. There is also an error with the touch circuit. I'm still looking at it but I wanted to add this in case you have a chance before your week long sabbatical. The resistor that connects A4 to the rest of the circuit is supposed to be 68K but it is labeled 6.8k on the layout.
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shawn



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well unless I missed something during the discussion the touch circuit contains 8 diodes yet the layout contains only 6. Am I missing something?
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akrearke



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok first let me say my apologies for not being on the forum to answer any questions. my home computer is finally kicked the bucket so i have no online capabilities for awhile. Also, sorry to eric for problems with the board layouts since he etched one already. i have all the questions printed out and will take the home with me to review the designs and make the corrections and post those soon. I hope everyone understands that this project was a bit tedious to say the least.
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shawn



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I redid the oscillator and the touch circuit layouts. I'm going to etch both tonight and see if they work correctly.
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akrearke



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok redesigned the the touch keyboard portion and the programmer portion yesterday. everything sould be fine, but double check before etching. will post these soon. There are six diodes in my version because i did not put the individual touch voltage outs on board, but the new version will have everything.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do you think it would be worthwile to try to kludge the existing board you lay-out?. Its only an issue because it's such a big board (8"x6"), and not that easy to get. I do have another 8"x6" however, that I was planning on using for the programmer board.

Eitherway, thanks for initiating the layouts on these boards, I for one am going to pretty excited to get some touch pads working, whatever the steps involved.


akrearke wrote:
Ok redesigned the the touch keyboard portion and the programmer portion yesterday. everything sould be fine, but double check before etching. will post these soon. There are six diodes in my version because i did not put the individual touch voltage outs on board, but the new version will have everything.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

akrearke wrote:
There are six diodes in my version because i did not put the individual touch voltage outs on board, but the new version will have everything.


Yeah, it's a moot point now I guess, but, it didn't seem like it really needed the individual touch point outs, sinse the common out selects the highest voltage.--And this common voltage is merely for pressure, yes? The programmer will provide the note value voltages. Anyways...
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