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Help me build Buchla/Serge style Capacitance Touch Keyboard?
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Peake



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
How did you feel about the key response in general? and the 'pressure' output?


Again, there were times that the circuit didn't even "see" that a note was being played, and often there was very noticeable lag before a note would occur, after being firmly "played". That's just the circuitry, which I again would not recommend unless someone can come up with a compromise between vintage feel and its actual foibles.

The pressure output was fine; what was fun was that there were multiple pressure sources so you could do more than one thing at once...
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbernone wrote:

I have a Ciat Lonbarde Sidrassi Organ which uses piezos attached to the "keys", it is a very sensitive and expressive interface. I am intending to try and emulate this type of control. I will be watching this thread closely,and will add any discoveries I make.


How does the key press into the piezo? Is there like a foot or something that extends down to the peizo?

numbernone wrote:

Funny how it is starting to boil down to everyone realizing that Buchla is really the BEES KNEES.


It really seems like there's a lot of interest in this sort of project. Maybe it could be a contender for a electro-music.com layout forum PCB printing. Of course that would require a layout...

Last edited by ericcoleridge on Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Peake wrote:

Again, there were times that the circuit didn't even "see" that a note was being played, and often there was very noticeable lag before a note would occur, after being firmly "played".


Ouch, that doesn't sound too good. But, I've heard a lot of praise for this keyboard from other users. Not to point out the obvious, but, of course, any keyboard in bad condition isn't an ideal controller.

Peake wrote:

That's just the circuitry, which I again would not recommend unless someone can come up with a compromise between vintage feel and its actual foibles.


I wonder which areas would be critical, as far as new versus old parts, for maintaining the feel?
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fonik



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
...with the 'programmer' circuit, as opposed to the actual keypad/trigger circuit. If the Buchla is like the Serge, the keys simply trigger another circuit that is programmed or set to output a specific voltage. Being able to program your scale and key voltages makes the circuit very versatile...

can anyone point me to such a programmer circuit? or should i trigger CMOS switches/diode matrix as mentioned before (scanning this diode matrix with the MFOS circuit)?

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Peake



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
Peake wrote:

Again, there were times that the circuit didn't even "see" that a note was being played, and often there was very noticeable lag before a note would occur, after being firmly "played".


Ouch, that doesn't sound too good. But, I've heard a lot of praise for this keyboard from other users. Not to point out the obvious, but, of course, any keyboard in bad condition isn't an ideal controller.


It's a killer controller (when it's calibrated)! I've never played one of the keyboards with a joystick so I can't say what the joystick plays like. Or if anyone would go the same technological route that Don did.

Last edited by Peake on Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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CJ Miller



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:38 am    Post subject: Re: pr0n salad Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:

the keyboard delivers triggers (and additional pressure voltages, the common would be enough, i think).
what would i have to add to get a chromatic keyboard?


A lot of multi-turn pots, probably! These keyboards were intended to be completely open-ended in their use. Dial in whatever tuning you choose, or just assign them to whatever event you need to interact with. Not a quick and easy way to get a tuned keyboard though. But if you desire a fast pressure-sensitive microtunable interface, you are in luck.

The only bit of Buchla gear I ever saw in person was a very old touch keyboard which David Hillel Wilson was restoring at his New England Synthesizer Museum years ago. It was the only Buchla piece he had then, and it wasn't working at the time. This was also the first occaision I had to play with an analog synth - an array of EML Electrocomp synths on the floor! The pots were very scratchy.
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widdly



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
ericcoleridge wrote:
...with the 'programmer' circuit, as opposed to the actual keypad/trigger circuit. If the Buchla is like the Serge, the keys simply trigger another circuit that is programmed or set to output a specific voltage. Being able to program your scale and key voltages makes the circuit very versatile...

can anyone point me to such a programmer circuit? or should i trigger CMOS switches/diode matrix as mentioned before (scanning this diode matrix with the MFOS circuit)?



It's the second part of the cyndustries synapse article you linked...

http://www.cyndustries.com/synapse/synapse.cfm?pc=43&folder=march1977&pic=31

Ken Stone has a much improved version here..

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs59_prog.html

Basically you are replacing the push buttons in Ken's design with the capacitive switches.

I'm sure a modern design using cmos would be possible and probably use fewer parts.

Each capacitive switch should provide a gate, trigger pulse, and cv.

Base the programmer around a pre-settable counter CD4029 and have each capacitive switch pulse a binary number onto the preset off the counter. The CD4029 also provides the up/down counter input and reset.

The outputs of the CD4029 feeds a couple of binary to decimal decoders CD4028 to provide the 16 steps. Hang the pots of the CD4028 outputs like in a baby10 sequencer.

You could also attach an r-2r dac of the 4029 to provide 16 notes of 1v/oct that you don't need to retune.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

widdly wrote:
fonik wrote:
ericcoleridge wrote:
...with the 'programmer' circuit, as opposed to the actual keypad/trigger circuit. If the Buchla is like the Serge, the keys simply trigger another circuit that is programmed or set to output a specific voltage. Being able to program your scale and key voltages makes the circuit very versatile...

can anyone point me to such a programmer circuit? or should i trigger CMOS switches/diode matrix as mentioned before (scanning this diode matrix with the MFOS circuit)?



It's the second part of the cyndustries synapse article you linked...

http://www.cyndustries.com/synapse/synapse.cfm?pc=43&folder=march1977&pic=31


i have seen this article before, but - dumb as i am - i did not bring those two together Rolling Eyes

thank you very much.
the original circuit will be fine for me. i just want 1 1/2 octaves keyboard. that would mean 18 stages. one row would be enough for me (trimmers on the PCB instead of potentiometers). or i could add a 2nd row for user defined scale Very Happy

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

but wait: the touchpad circuit provides trigger. how could it be modified to provide gate instead? some logic?
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widdly



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a comparator on the cv output. You could put it on the common voltage out.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

easy Very Happy

one more question, though.

the programmer article states that "...the pushbutton may be replaced by hardwiring their lead connections to the pulse outputs of the Touch Sensitive Keyboard...".

would that mean to connect the trigger of the TSK to both sides of the diode of the programmer?
the 470pF cap, the diode and the 47k resistor of the external pulse in can be ommited then, right?

why not just leave off the whole pushbutton circuitry (including common pulse) and summing the triggers with diodes? (see below)

thank you for sharing.


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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
If the Buchla is like the Serge,


no the buchla [the 217 at least] is not like the serge.

the serge TKB scans the keys- a pulse train is multiplexed and latches the count when a press is detected- the 4-bit count is converted to a 'key voltage' by a simple AD converter- and also can address the 1 of 8 MUX sequencer stages. the 'pressure', i believe, is derived from the piezoelectric property of the key material.

in the buchla, and the serge article, pressure voltage is derived from a voltage average, which changes as you press harder on the key. you become part of a LPF network that filters the HF pulses seen at the other end. the key voltage is derived in a completely different way, similar to the 'digitally programmable gain stage' of the day. alot more circuitry here- that could be updated, of course .. this was drawn in 1970....

i have a partially working serge TKB type circuit on a breadboard where i tried to incorporate a simple global 'pressure' and 'velocity' function with the 1 of 16 scanning arrangement of the serge [which scans @ around 20kHz with the clock built as shown] i can tell you that the clock needs to run faster, and to get some useful testing done i will have to etch a proper key board [with ground planes and pads as are in the buchla keys].

up to 4-voice control was a goal of mine in experimenting with this- and to be honest, if i [or anyone here?] just took the time to learn a bit about these specialized, new-fangled HIGH SPEED ICs, this kind of project could be a snap, relatively speaking..

i mean, wouldn't you like to control your soft-synths with it as well?? no, but really.... dim your lights, contour the pressure of the air-jets in your jacuzzi, all with the slide of a finger??

think about it.... Cool
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

topp wrote:
up to 4-voice control was a goal of mine in experimenting with this- and to be honest, if i [or anyone here?] just took the time to learn a bit about these specialized, new-fangled HIGH SPEED ICs, this kind of project could be a snap, relatively speaking..


Buchla had a four-channel S/H for his keyboards- check the Historical page on his site.

Regarding "specialized, new-fangled HIGH SPEED ICs" (no need to be silly or deprecating), if it doesn't lose something that the originals had, then fine. If you've ever played a Buchla, you'll know that there is a distinct feel to the system as well as the patching and overall tact and aesthetic feel. It's a significant part of the experience and is highly attractive. If you have never played a Buchla, or owned one long enough to sense this, I encourage you all to do so before casually setting aside an important aspect of his circuitry and a genuine part of the reason that Buchla is the bee's knees. Don't get into the place where many who clone circuitry lose the reasons that the original was interesting. There's something there which can be lost, especially when you move out into a complete system of modules.

Shrug.
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

This was fun for sure! -> Buchla system at the EMS studio in Stockholm.
I think the keyboard module was called something like 'Telesthetic Input Module'.
- I only had 4 hours free on the machine, so wasn't able to fathom everything, but damn it was fun.
[edit -- I'd forgotten there was a joystick on there too. The keyboard was actually, I think, from the 300 series while the rest of the system was 200 series]

I'm quite interested to get some keyboard-pcbs done sometime - I've been thinking on & off for a couple of years about the Synapse modules. I think the key design lends itself to keys in multiples of 2 (due to each key using 1/4 lm3900 - though, I think I tried with other opamps and got results too) - I'd thought maybe 8 keys as being a good number - compact, yet still enough ?!?!

For what its worth --- I now get my Weevil touchplates done (via Futurlec, though gonna try pcbcart.com soon) using smd pads in Eagle.
I'd like to try doing some more track-based designs (for good shapes) and then get them fabricated but without solder-mask... I don't know if that'd give the right results, but maybe.?!

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numbernone



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ericcoleridge wrote:
numbernone wrote:

I have a Ciat Lonbarde Sidrassi Organ which uses piezos attached to the "keys", it is a very sensitive and expressive interface. I am intending to try and emulate this type of control. I will be watching this thread closely,and will add any discoveries I make.


How does the key press into the piezo? Is there like a foot or something that extends down to the peizo?



The piezos are glued directly to the "keys", which are plastic. The keys are twice as thick at top and bottom, raising the majority of the key length above the surface of the box. Pressure of varying degrees on the keys press the two parts of the piezo together. I will try to post a picture later when I get home. Its a pretty ghetto setup but I love it.
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbernone wrote:

The piezos are glued directly to the "keys", which are plastic. The keys are twice as thick at top and bottom, raising the majority of the key length above the surface of the box. Pressure of varying degrees on the keys press the two parts of the piezo together. I will try to post a picture later when I get home. Its a pretty ghetto setup but I love it.


Some of the Buchla Touch Controllers were implemented with a sort of spring mechanism, and sensors apparently, to provide additional variable voltages. So they had both the capacitance pressure, and a kind of aftertouch expression. It's strange that other companies didn't try to explore these kinds of expressive possibilities much.

I once did some work on a MultiMoog, and it had a similar implementation as your Sidrassi Organ; It had a pressure sensitive strip running the entire length of the keyboard, below the keys. Just a simple, straightforward, variable resistor--but it totally made an otherwise unremarkable instrument very usable and expressive. I don't know if anyone makes rolls of variable resistance strip anymore-- I mostly just see the 'flexi-sensor' type when I google them--which is more like 6 inch strips, or squares, circles, etc.
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice to know. The circuit that drives it is a bit weird, but sounds like it would be worth the effort to give it a go one day.

Romeo

Peake wrote:
vtl5c3 wrote:
Hey Peake,

You had a 217? How was the touch control strip above the touch keys? I've always wondered if that wouldn't be a good DIY solution for a ribbon controller like device. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, there's a pic and description on Buchla's website:

http://www.buchla.com/historical/b200/217-keyboard.html


It was excellent; I'd buy a box with two of them alone if it were available. (Edit: Only if they were vintage circuits- none of this modern high-speed stuff, thanks.)

They each output gate, pressure, and position (both increasing toward the center of the unit, IIRC). Because they're nonlinear they're a lot of fun.

Buchla also included a set of four individual keys which output a settable voltage, gate, and pressure (each). Very useful for initiating events or modulation paths.
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okvern



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fellow Builders,

There's a nice pressure-sensitive touch switch circuit presented in Polyphony magazine's March/April 1982 issue: "Touch Switches Revisited." Since PAIA offers photocopies of the magazine for sale, I'm not comfortable posting scans of the circuit here (though I do think that they ought to offer them as PDF on their web site).

If we root around, maybe we can find a public-domain version of the circuit online--or maybe someone from PAIA can tell me if it's okay to post them. I'll ask.

I've been planning to someday build a version of the Serge touch-activated keyboard sequencer around this touch plate design and an Arduino. Soundwork--the long-gone Seattle electronic music studio I used to work in--had a bunch of the Buchla 200 series touchplates, and I loved them.

Thanks,

Ole
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ericcoleridge



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd love to see the Polyphony article if you're able to get permission.
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toppobrillo



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
(no need to be silly or deprecating)


oh i'm sorry- i didn't mean it like that, silly yes, but that's all. about all that other stuff- i'm not setting aside anything and i wasn't talking about cloning anything particularly.. just suggesting the use of newer technology for a controller.

anyways.. new-fangled aside, the linear controller looks like a good project by itself for sure.
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Peake



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No problem- I'm having a hard time not being pedantic and controlling. Sorry.
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factus10



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's a thought.... take the touch sense circuit in the following design and use it to implement the actual switch portion of the controller:
http://www.discovercircuits.com/PDF-FILES/12vexc1.pdf

I think I'd take the sensitivity control and only implement it once.

Implement it as a matrix and use Ray Wilson's matrix keyboard circuit to do the trigger to CV, etc.

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widdly



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are some similar ideas from John Simonton ...

I like how you get 2 CV's from it, velocity and pressure.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

http://www.paia.com/ProdArticles/touchsw.html

Last edited by widdly on Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think i will try the synapse/serge circuits.

to do this i will have to etch myself a test PCB with some touch sensors.

needs each key to have it's own ground plane?

fonik wrote:
easy Very Happy

one more question, though.

the programmer article states that "...the pushbutton may be replaced by hardwiring their lead connections to the pulse outputs of the Touch Sensitive Keyboard...".

would that mean to connect the trigger of the TSK to both sides of the diode of the programmer?
the 470pF cap, the diode and the 47k resistor of the external pulse in can be ommited then, right?

why not just leave off the whole pushbutton circuitry (including common pulse) and summing the triggers with diodes? (see below)

thank you for sharing.

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matthias
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okvern



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fellow Builders,

I've heard from PAIA about the Polyphony articles, but they haven't decided one way or the other. I also asked them about putting Polyphony online in PDF form and offered to help, and it sounds like they're thinking about that, too. (That would be awesome, actually--and it would be pretty easy for me to do. I have almost all of the issues.)

The circuit posted by widdly is just what I was thinking of--or very similar (no surprise, since John Simonton was the driving force behind Polyphony, as well as PAIA). Looking through the archive, I've found a couple of other articles, as well--including a much more complex and interesting circut: the Dynamic Touch Controller in the February 1983 issue.

I'll keep you posted as I hear more from Scott at PAIA. Note that it really depends on the ownership of the rights for the articles--for most of the stuff I write, for example, the publisher only owns the right to a.) first publication, and b.) the specific layout. But I have no idea what sort of contract the Polyphony writers were working with in the 1980s--could easily have been a straight "work for hire" deal.

Thanks,

Ole
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