After the G2

mosc · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: After the G2

This post is to generate a discussion.

There is a saying, "Hope for the best and plan for the worst". In this case, the worst I am considering is that the G2 is discontinued by Clavia, and their software is not released. This seems pretty much the way it is, unfortunately.

I love the G2, but I'm wondering what different platform is best for me in the future. All of us G2 patchers must be thinking about this.

To me, light weight and easy-to-carry are critical. Right now I can perform with just my G2X. So far I have not used a computer as part of my performing kit, but that's in the process of changing.

Adding a laptop PC and a RME Fireface 400 has not added too much mass to my setup; just one small case. It raises the capability tremendously. I can route into and out of the G2 - quite easy, of course. Very Happy

On the PC I'm narrowing down to using Ableton Live as the glue - something that will be on all the time. I'm just starting to get my teeth into it. It offers all kinds of splendid additional capabilities. The G2 lacks sampling - Ableton Live seems like a fine sampler and looper.

I would like to use VST synths in banks, like G2 performances. Most free VST synths I've tried are really nice, and some are just beautiful to look at, but, I have yet to find anything that matches my whims and style. So, I'm going to want to patch up my own synths. Of course. Very Happy

So this is where I'm at: the next thing it to integrate with the G2 the PC with Ableton Live. In the future, as computers get more capable, I learn more about Live and VST design, and the G2 gets older, replace the G2X with a MIDI keyboard.

For patching, which can be synonymous with VST development, I've been looking at two programs, Synth Edit and Synth Maker. Both are really nice in that they provide a pretty good graphical interfaces for building patches. To me, Synth Maker is a closer match to me. It has superior ways of handling feedback, something that can be tricky in VST designs, and you can write DSP code directly which compiles into assembler - editable, of course. It is hierarchical, so you can design modules. Reaktor synths, I understand, must be used with Reaktor. VSTs seem a better targed.

I could imagine the G2 community slowly fading out but as the G2 dies, but it's also conceivable that many of us would move on into similar futures. Maybe we could use our patching culture in VST development. Maybe is a big word.

So this is to open a discussion. Many topics have been touched. Don't worry about being off topic.

dasz · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:37 pm Post subject:

BobTheDog · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:50 am Post subject:

Well If you are going the LapTop route than Native Instruments Reaktor is well worth a look, you can download a demo version to have a look at. http://www.native-instruments.com/forums.html?id=reaktor5_us

The Reaktor community is also very good and the number of high quality ensembles (performance/patch) that are available for free in the user library is astounding.

Version 5 added dsp like functionality called "Core" so if you want you can get your hands very dirty.

Andy

iPassenger · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:20 am Post subject:

I must say it is a shame that the G2 seems to be coming towards the end of its cycle and forum activity has definitely died down significantly since I got my baby nearly a couple of years ago.

For me the G2 is definitely still a viable tool and I won't be replacing it with software or another hardware as I have yet to use/see anything as accessible. Reaktor is really clever but much more of a PITA to use.

To note Howard, is that although I think Ableton is the bees knees when it comes to Audio, its handling of Midi is rock bottom.. The clock is all over the place (either sending or receiving) and recording midi events in is well, testing at best. For me it is the most jittery midi spec I have ever used.. and I used to have a P2 with an early cubase vst!!

I am now bypassed the issue by running Nuendo with a Midex midi box and keeping ableton as a slave.. so Ableton no longer has any influence over the midi.

If your just going to record everything into Ableton as live audio though, this need not be an issue... presuming you don't want to clock your nord and Ableton together.

I must admit YMMV on this but i know a number of other users of various hardware devices and ableton have been troubled by the same issue.

iPassenger · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:35 am Post subject:

Just on the Forum getting quieter:

I read on another forum where an individual said they had stopped bothering with this forum since Clavia failed to provide another udpate... I kind of think this was a bit daft, as it hardly letting Clavia know of his annoyance and only really harming him and possibly the rest of the community. Each to their own though I guess.

Antimon · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:28 am Post subject:

A daydream project I have is to make a NM imitation in software, where the sound engine is implemented separately (maybe in ChucK) from the editor/live interface, the two parts communicating with OSC in such a way that, should hardware controllers supporting OSC start to appear, they should be able to tap into this existing interface/sound engine protocol.

I don't think this is impossible, and I think it could turn out well. The sound engine needs to be routable in the same extent that the G2 is, which isn't supported by ChucK currently, but that can be fixed. I'm positive that OSC (or something like it) is going to start appearing more in hardware.

/Stefan

klangumsetzer · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:35 am Post subject:

hm,

this is my experience: after dabbling with logic and vsts for eight years I purchased an expanded nm (classic) three years ago and began experimenting with fm and xmod. A month ago I got a used micro which I love and last week I purchased a used g2x which i played during a festival for contemporary music in lueneburg this monday.

for me the major benefits of the nm platform are:

interface/usability, especially with the g2x
portability, for its size the g2x is really light in weight
compatibility between original nm and g2, thanks to this great community!
more programming options than i will probably ever use (i like simple things)

i like working with vsts and computers but not in a live context. for the future i want to work on the performance aspect of my music, e.g. by using the audio inputs of the nm with (contact) mics and/or prerecorded/live audio. for this the nm is well suited.

best regards

eike
---

kara · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:06 am Post subject:

My whole live setup is based on a G2X and a micro-modular, and that won't change in the near future.
I've spend way to much time creating all setups to redo this in something else... beside I don't think there is something equivalent today Rolling Eyes

Allso, at the moment I wouldn't want to rely on a pc or laptop for the moment, but that will perhaps change in the future?

I can only hope that my clavias stay alive for the next years even without updates Confused

polyslax · Joined: Apr 12, 2008 Posts: 25 Location: canada

Is it unthinkable that Clavia will produce future OS/platform compatibility updates for the G2 user base? I certainly have no intention of dropping the synth... I find it the best soft modular environment I've ever used.

jksuperstar · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:30 am Post subject:

I'm not having luck with the search engine, but I know there is a VST/tool to help control the G2, patch changes, etc from a VST host. For some reason, I'm just not finding it, though.

Howard, you may check that out to help integrate the G2 with Ableton to make life easy.

fac · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:18 am Post subject:

I just got my G2 last Xmas, so I'm not letting it go anytime soon. I don't really see what the big deal is: there are still a lot of people using their first-generation nord modulars, and assuming Clavia releases the Vista driver/editor, I don't see why it would not be possible to use the G2 for the next 10 years.

In any case, I'm a fan of modular enviroments and I already have some experience with PureData and SuperCollider, so I can always fall back to any of those. The G2 is much nicer and better sounding, though, if not as flexible.

I'd recommend anyone who likes the G2 approach to take a look at PureData (Pd) or Max/MSP. They're more low-level than the G2, but also much more interesting, especially for interactive sequencing and sample-based stuff. Actually, using both Pd and the G2 should be great; unfortunately, Pd does not send MIDI clock (yet) so sync'ing would be an issue.

mosc · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject:

jksuperstar · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject:

I've heard Ableton 7 made some vast improvements in MIDI timing. I'm not sure on that yet, but when I upgrade from 6, I will post back if I see anything drastic. In general, I think *most* software does not have very good timing, inherent to the fact that OS's don't give them fast process switching, etc. So there is latency built in to the system no matter how good or bad a program is. True for all OS's. So, I'd suggest using an external clock as your master, maybe from the G2?

buzzr · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:

I'm looking into Reaktor. I don't like the idea of going completely back to computer music at all as it is not stable. I've used LiSa, Max/Msp a little of supercollider and I have to say that the G2 is the best platform. It allows my ideas to come to fruition much quicker.

I find Max/Msp and Abelton Live interface quite hideous in a lot of ways. Reaktor is also very ugly and not as intuitive as the G2.

I will most likely combine G2 with LiSa. But I feel this is a step backwards for my development.

It seems logical that Clavia would combine the modular environment to what they have done with the Wave.

blue hell · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject:

buzzr · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject:

I would buy it today if it were available. Even though I cannot afford it.

Antimon · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:07 am Post subject:

Roland Kuit · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:51 am Post subject:

I like ableton Live too! For a nice vst site:
http://www.kvraudio.com/
Reaktor is very nice! You van make a vst instument of all Reaktor made synths/fx

b.t.w. hope the G2 community is not dieing.
And a modular 'wave', that would be nasty Cool

iPassenger · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:37 am Post subject:

iPassenger · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:37 am Post subject:

[quote="roland kuit"]

b.t.w. hope the G2 community is not dieing.
[quote]

+1

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:38 am Post subject:

My hunch is that what we are seeing now is the swansong of the G2. The G2X and the Engine are out of production already and I suspect that Clavia will continue to manufacture G2s only until their stock of parts (mainboards, panelboards, casings etc.) is used up. Either that, or they already have stopped production and are just (slowly) selling off the last batch. As I say, that's just my hunch.

Anyway, the G2 will ultimately face the same fate as all electronic instruments that are tied up with digital computer technology in some way: They will become obsolete sooner or later. This cannot be helped, it's just Moore's Law.

In my personal opinion, electronic music (or actually, all art) is at a watershed right now. The problem is that digital technology grows in an exponential fashion, but artistic development doesn't. When the exponential growth rate is still low, both can go along in tandem with each other -and they did. For centuries, technological achievments happened at a pace where society in general and art in particular had enough time to catch up with the innovations and absorb them into their fabric. When the acoustic piano was invented in 1703, it took about 150 years for the artistic implications of this technological breakthrough to be fully fathomed and realised. Sure, the instrument was still constantly being refined during all this time, but these were peripheral mechanical improvements or enlargements which didn't change anything about the basic operational concept (except improve it). So, this was a beautiful example of a long and fruitful marriage between art and technology which gave birth to the huge legacy of piano music and performance practices which enrich our society to this day.

But it isn't like that anymore. Technologies develop so rapidly these days that there simply isn't enough time to artistically master them anymore. As a consequence, the whole very concept of artistic mastery -excellence- has become increasingly meaningless, disappearing into the void of postmodernist relativism. But that's another story...

Anyway -for me, the solution therefore seems so be to disengage myself as much as possible from the "technology rat race" in order to maintain my artistic sanity. So I'll probably use my G2Xs as long as possible, running WinXP on a dedicated computer for the editor. But in future I will steer clear of purely computer-driven music technology as much as I can. I'm a hardware guy anyway, and can see myself going back to that. Like, I bought a spiffy DAW this spring with expensive software, but I hardly use it. Staring at virtual synths on a computer screen is a big turnoff for me. I'd rather give up the benefits of all this (total recall, cost, space etc.) and go back to racks of synths and modules and a mixing desk which I can physically touch (using the computer solely as a recording device). I'm a musician and I love being surrounded by musical instruments, not just an USB keyboard, mouse and a computer.

In terms of synthesis, I'll probably ultimately replace the G2 (my "jack of all trades") with an array of more specialised hardware synths that cover the different individual bases separately, but therefore better. It means far more bulk, but the sound will definetely benefit (as will the gear-porn factor Very Happy

). Sure, hardware synths are just computers too (at least the digital ones). But they are closed systems that run on a dedicated code. Which means that you can still use them as a musical instrument very well, even when technology has moved on long ago. Eg., the Yamaha DX7 is still a great and very usable musical tool in my book, even if the digital technology it runs on is very dated. I have an SY99 here (of the DX pedigree) and I'm only now slowly getting the hang of it. DX FM synthesis is a stimulating and rewarding challenge, far from being dated musically.

What I will steer clear of in future is synths that require computer connection (USB etc.) for their basic operation.

For the truly (digital) modular stuff, I might pick up an Eventide H8000FW. Yes, this requires a computer for editing, but that editor is a very barren and simple exe-application that works on any Windows platform (it even runs on Win95). Also, the long-term product support of Eventide is legendary, not only in software but also hardware. (eg. you can hardware-upgrade an old Orville to a H8000)

That's where I'll be heading I guess.

Tim Kleinert · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:32 am Post subject:

blue hell · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:09 am Post subject:

iPassenger · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:27 am Post subject:

Interesting post tim, I know i should probably spend more time making sounds but i love talking about my favourite hobby too. Smile

Jan,

I have a similar feeling towards software too, i didn't used to think i have been spoilt by the hardware machines i now have.

Derek Cook · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:52 am Post subject:

Hi, my own thoughts for what it's worth..... Smile

Just because support for a platform stops it doesn't stop the platform being viable! The G2 is probably the youngest piece of kit in my live setup which includes Yamaha EX, FS1R, Motif ES Rack (and PLG150-AN) and A4000. I have a studio based SY77 and AN1x to boot!

And when manufacturers stop making gear, then forums like this excellent one really come into their own regarding keeping a community together. Yes, they do tend to become quiter - EX5Tech for example only has one or two posts a day now (if that) compared to its heyday, but we're still there!

So as to the future? Well I really need to stop lusting after new gear and ensure that I get the best out of what I have including the G2! So I have no immediate plans to replace anything "new", as if I can't make good music with what I have, then there must be something wrong!

But in today's age, considering integrating a computer into your setup is now much more viable. In addition to the hardware listed above, I've integrated a Vista (yuk) based laptop into my stage setup and, touch wood, so far it has been as reliable as the hardware gear. I'm using it at the moment to run NI B4 but may use it for other things as well in the future, possibly replacing the A4000 with a soft-sampler. That would cut the weight of my rack down quite a bit (the A4000 weighs a ton!) and it would leave space in the rack for some other goodies (sorry, lusting again!) in the rack. I have an SY77 in the studio, but don't really want to take another keyboard out, so if a TG77 came up at the right price.......