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Donaldito



Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: new guy type questions Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good morning. I've looked around at some of the other posts from new people and haven't really been able to answer some specific questions. So, I created a username and here I am.
My questions are simple, really. I've been a guitar player for a while and have recently become wrapped up in a few "electronic" artists in particular. I'm quite interested in making music in a simialr way and want to know if the very minimal setup I already happen to have will be enough. One thing I don't want to do is spend a bunch of money on equipment only to not really use it afterall. So right now, I have a totally stripped down computer system running Win98. I have a pretty cheap soundcard and speakers. And I have the program Vegas. To at least get started and see if this is something I will pursue further, do you think this is sufficient? For an idea, I happen to be listening to a lot of Four Tet and Fennesz right now and am interested in their styles. I'm not saying I'm looking to copy them, I'm just wondering, at least to start, do I have the equipment to produce what they are able to produce? Anyone?
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Donaldito
welcome to electro-music.com
I really can not answer your question, being a Mac user, but I am sure someone else will.
welcome

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jkn



Joined: Mar 14, 2004
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Location: La Porte, IN, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've running Vegas (currently running 2.0) on Win98 for about five years... It's a very powerful easy to use multitrack recorder. There are a ton of other options out there - however, you're fine with what you have.

What you may want to look into is something to bring some drums and things in to the mix - I've been very happy with Fruity Loops which is now called FL Studio. The Express version will only set you back $49. But try the demo first... it's one of those tools that seems almost like a toy at first - but it's incredibly deep and easy to get into. Fruity will give you drums, softsynths, sequencing, effects processing, etc... I usually run drum patterns out of Fruity into my mixer and then back into the pc into a track in Vegas - recording tweaks and changes live. Drop your own samples in. http://www.flstudio.com

As an alternative drum machine - Rebirth is very good. http://www.propellerheads.se The demo has an odd limititation of only working for 15 minutes according to their website.
I used to use Rebirth - which is centered around the Roland 808/909/303 gear - however, Fruity made more sense to me how it works and I switched pretty much permanently to that.

Soundcard may or may not be a problem - if it's working fine and recording well and you're happy with the sound - perfect. Older game type cards had more problems than newer ones. If it's not causing problems - I wouldn't mess with it.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well... one of the finest electronic albums of the 70s was done mainly using guitar... and then a few simple synths..
The group is Ashra ( at this stage just Manuel Göttsching alone ) and the album is called Blackouts.

It all depends on how you work. One inexpensive way to start out is getting Cubase SE. It is a good DAW/sequencer and it supports the usual plugins. You can get many freeware synths from the net.. and then you can just start to make music right away. It could be smart to get a better soundcard.. and you have many options really. You can get very inexpensive units with traditional DI, mic amps and effects... I think Edirol has one of these.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Welcome.

I haven't used Vegas, but I looked at the Sonic Foundary web pages for it. Seems like all you need until you realize there is something missing. The main thing that seems missing, from my reading, is VST pluggins, but there have their own pluggins which seem to be very extensive.

I think JKN is pretty much right on about this. You probably do need an external mixer which will come in handy for all kinds of uses even without the computer. If you don't have one already, I suggest the Behringer line of mixers. They are very cheap and very good. The mixer will let you get stuff in and out of the computer much easier than you can using the mini plugs on the sound card. You can get one of these for less than $100, if you don't already have one. The Behringer UA 1002 is a real gem. I have one - quite as a mouse and very rugged.

I too think if your soundcard is working, stick with it. Don't get overwhealmed by all these 24 bit 96 and 192 KHz cards. You'll need a new sound card when you need to record more than a couple of tracks simultaneously.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with Howard on the behringer stuff. I have the UB 802.. which seems to be basically the same design Howard has... a newer model?
These mixers are useful for all sorts of things. A line level mixer like the old Fostex 2016 can be useful too.. for like submixing instruments .
You can get old gear like the roland D-110 and U-110 series.. very cheap these days. Those have 8 line outputs and even though the sound is a bit dated you can mess it up with effects and processing.

A great little drummer is the Attack. http://waldorf-music.com/attack.html Waldorf is no more.. but I have still seens these in shops for like 10-14 euro.

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jkn



Joined: Mar 14, 2004
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Location: La Porte, IN, USA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also - with the mixer you'll be able to continue using the things you already own. I'm betting as a guitar player you already have some pedals that you know and love - why not use those on whatever you generate out of the computer?

As far as Vegas goes - yeah - no VSTs, no sequencer/midi... At least in the version I run ... I wasn't looking for those functions so Vegas fit my needs very well. I've never bothered upgrading because with newer versions Sonic Foundry (now Sony) started focusing more and more on video production. The old version I run meets my needs for multitracking. ...and yes - the plugins that come with Vegas are highly useful - well rounded.

I process sounds heavily using Sound Forge - that's where I do any sound mangling where I want to change the sound directly with effects. However, all of the plugins (directx based...) that work in SF work in Vegas - main difference is in Vegas they're running in realtime on top of the playing track - where in Sound Forge you're physically changing the track.
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Donaldito



Joined: Aug 13, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:24 am    Post subject: Thanks for all the info Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The feedback is great. It's nice that everyone's willing to help. I think intially, of course, I'll stick with what I have. My plan as of right now is to not really use any live samples, meaning, I won't pick up my guitar and record a track onto the computer for use in the creative process. My plan is to start off completely sample-based and to generate the sounds I want (or can't find a direct sample of) by manipulation. I don't actually like to have set boundaries with a new project; I'm usually open to it going anywhere it needs to. But with equipment limitations, this is my initial plan of attack.
Thanks again.
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aquanaut



Joined: Apr 25, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a link where you have a lot of free plug in for PC. I think its named KVR..... http://www.kvr-vst.com/
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Kraken



Joined: Aug 10, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Salud!

Hello, Donaldito, here there are my two cents.

Free additions:
* I don't know Vegas. If it supports VST plugins and you're happy with it, keep it. If not...
* ...go to www.kvr-vst.com. It's a website choke full of info about VST instruments, effects and sequencers. In kvr, look for a Freeware VST enabled sequencer, a freeware synth (like Crystal or Synth 1, both are great), a freeware delay, a freeware reverb (S.I.R. is an incredible free convolution reverb), a freeware flanger, you get the point. Put it all to work. Kvr has a rating system, so you'll know what is good and what is bad. Just with this step you won't spend a buck and will be happy for several lifetimes.

Expenses:
* Upgrade your PC to at least 512 Mb RAM if your's has less than that.
* Get a good soundcard. It's a very important step, IMO. You can get a great 24/96 card, like the PCI Audiophile from M-Adio, for 80-100 euro/dollar. ***Don't*** get an Audigy, don't listen to the guy who tries to sell you one. Other cheap options: Terratec.

Optional expenses:
* A mixing console, depending on your sound sources. Always keep in mind that it's better to avoid the desk if at all possible to get less noise. But if you have many external sources and/or need cheap preamps, they are a need (unless you are ready to invest a lot in an audio card with lots of I/O).

Possible future expenses, depending on how it all develops:
* A bigger computer.
* A pair of near field monitors.
* A good microphone.
* A good preamp.
* A big sequencer, like Logic (not if you use PC), Cubase, Sonar or Live (or thier cheapr siblings). They all have demo versions on their websites.
* A big softsynth (Absynth, Reaktor, etc.)
* A hardware synth.
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Kraken



Joined: Aug 10, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Salud!

The point is, in my opinion you have to step into VST domain as soon as possible, youll never regret it.

VST is an open protocol which allowsyou to use VST instruments and effects in an VST compliant host (usually a software sequencer, but not always).

There are other such "protocols", like DXi (PC), AudioUnits (Mac), RTAS and TDM (ProTools), but VST has LLLLOOOOTTTTSSSSS of good free stuff (and lots of bad free stuff, but hey, it's free), lots of great not-free stuff and lots of happy users to help you.

You can even make your own good (or bad) free stuff with tools like Synth edit.

Once you get into VST, the problem is to resist the urge to own every free plugin in existence. Try to avoid it. Delete anything you don't use. Try not to have several plugins for the same function, keep just one or two. I know, I've been there and it is Hell. Smile
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
.. but I have still seens these in shops for like 10-14 euro.
are you sure Question
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
there is also the hardware version of the homonymous plug-in

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes... the original software.. I just bought one for approx 12 euro. .. a week ago or so.
the hardware version is great too.. but that one is a tad more expensive still. Waldorf gear is pretty hot still!

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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

May i suggest you consider this also...

http://www.cycling74.com/products/maxmsp.html
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

niko_91 wrote:
May i suggest you consider this also...

http://www.cycling74.com/products/maxmsp.html


Helen, I remembered I think, do you use MAX/MSP? It seems like that's so powerful and complete as to be a world into itself.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Helen...

who are you talking to Question
guys hidden behind female avatars.....what's going on here Question

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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Helen? Shocked Mosc, how come you know i live with an Helen. Weird...no, I'm Nicholas. I don't use Max/Msp. I don't have the cerebral processor to go into Msp or Reaktor. 96 sound bite into one preset in my sampler (emu e5000) is more i can manage and control. BUT if i could it would be MAX/MSP before Reaktor.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

niko_91 wrote:
Helen? Shocked Mosc, how come you know i live with an Helen. Weird...no, I'm Nicholas.

You mentioned Helen in one post. Now I remember your name is Nicholas. It would be nice to have a more even distribution of genders participating here. I guess I was thinking with my heart. Shocked

Yes, MAX/MSP becons to me too, but I have more stuff than I can handle as it is. The learning curve on MAX/MSP is very steep and long, and you would have to use it frequently to have good chops. WRT this discussion where Donaldito wants to know if he has the minimum gear necessary to see if he likes making electronic music, I think MAX/MSP, Reaktor, and even VSTs are not appropriate for him. All require considerable dedication of time. Certainly MAX and Reaktor aren't for the casual user. If he started getting into this, then he'd start to get a feel for what he wants next.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
You mentioned Helen in one post.

not on the forum Shocked
the king of kings wrote:
“Ye Trojans, Dardans, all our generous foes!
Hear and attest! from Heaven with conquest crown’d,
Our brother’s arms the just success have found:
Be therefore now the Spartan wealth restor’d,
Let Argive Helen own her lawful lord;
The appointed fine let Ilion justly pay,
And age to age record this signal day.”

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Last edited by seraph on Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
mosc wrote:
You mentioned Helen in one post.

not on the forum Shocked

Don't tell me you check every post... Question
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. I guess Carlo did just that now.. Shocked
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

Don't tell me you check every post... Question

ever heard of "search query" Question Shocked

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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I think MAX/MSP, Reaktor, and even VSTs are not appropriate for him. All require considerable dedication of time. Certainly MAX and Reaktor aren't for the casual user.


You're right. I've been listening to Fennesz music has mention in the first post. Experimental ambient stuff and transparent sounding.

-a minidisc recorder
-a Roland sp-606 (sampler+sequencer)
-mix in vegas

I think the best way to know if you enjoy sequencing is to do it with a machine. The sp-606 is reasonnably priced.
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aquanaut



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
(off topic alert)So damn cheap also...

You sold what????Helene's first commandment: never sell your gear under no circumstance. A few years ago i sold a blackface 64 deluxe reverb amp to pay my rent.


I mention her name in the K-station vs Mikrokorg thread

mystery solved
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seraph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

_•°ø wrote:
I mention her name in the K-station vs Mikrokorg thread

mystery solved

Howard, I have to tell you: the search query option is not what it used to be Exclamation anyway your memory is still in good shape even if it is slightly warped Shocked
"_•°ø" what happened to your name Nicholas Question

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