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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:55 am    Post subject: Problems... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,I had the dubious priviledge of owning the first G2 in the UK,back at the start of the year. Since then I've experienced some problems with it,which for some reason,Clavia (Sweden) can't or won't deal with.I've have to say right now that I'm less than happy with their attitude:I wasn't even afforded the courtesy of an acknowledgement when I first contacted them with a question (and a compliment),though I've found Hand in Hand to be very helpful.

Hopefully someone on this forum may shed some light on a couple of problems I've been experiencing.Firstly,I can't get the G2 to change programmes over MIDI (initiated from Logic) in patch mode.It works in performance mode however,but I want to work predominently in patch mode.I'm (still) waiting for Clavia to answer this.The MIDI activity light comes on when I attempt to change patches,but nothing actually happens.

Secondly,and more worryingly,I'm experiencing intermittent clicking sounds on some patches I've created,which render them unusable in a track.I can't figure out what could be causing this,but it sounds similar to a clocking/sync error.It isn't that:I've checked my system,and the rest of my equipment is fine.

Finally,I wish to use the G2 editor on the Mac as well as the PC.I copied my patches over to the Mac and found that,although I can open them successfully,they will not save in the same folder they came from!I have to create a new folder into which they will save.The icon and file extensions are identical,though.This is an inconvenience, rather than a serious problem,but I wondered whether anyone else had come across this.

Thanks in advance should anyone be able to help.
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can probably answer your mac problem. You are using OS X.. and you copied an entire folder over the network or from a CD. I reckon there is a privs issue here. In the Finder.. do a get info on that folder.. mark the folder and go command+I or just pick "get info" from the Finder menu.

In the infobox you will see a spot called owenership.. check in there and be sure that the privs are reasonable.. you can copy a set of privs to the contents of a folder too. Be sure that you can read and write to the folder and all the files inside.

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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice one,Elektro (may I call you Elektro?).I should have looked at that in the first place.Damn stupid Priviledges:I loved Paul White's editorial on that a short while back.Very true.Anyway,I managed to solve the patch change problem all by myself.Had to change the MIDI channel and sys ex ID,and now it works.Now that leaves the clicking,which is really worrying.Thanks once again.
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sure! Elektro will do just fine.

I read that Paul White thingie myself and I found it to be a bit stupid. On the one hand he is all for education and such for people who wanna be great producers and musicians.. on the other hand he refuses to learn the very basics when he changes his computing platform to a UNIX based system. very uncool. he is supposed to be a power user anyway, so in his case this is .. well.. RTFM! He is kinda communicating the wrong ideas here.

..But yes.. I understand why people find the privs stuff confusing. fact is.. there has been similar privs issues on the PC..but they are kinda hidden.. and with UNIX.. this is actually an important feature.. a good thing.. not a bad thing.

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Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 578
Location: The Hague/Netherlands/EC
G2 patch files: 109

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Problems... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

strawinsky wrote:


Secondly,and more worryingly,I'm experiencing intermittent clicking sounds on some patches I've created,which render them unusable in a track.I can't figure out what could be causing this,but it sounds similar to a clocking/sync error.It isn't that:I've checked my system,and the rest of my equipment is fine.



Many times clicks are caused by very fast attacks of 0.5 msec, setting attacks to 7 to 10 msec helps. Very fast decays of 0.5 msec can also cause a click when the note stops, decays of 50 msec are fast enough.

Clicks can also happen when a voice is stolen by another note. Increasing polyphony helps here, the expansionboard helped me a lot on this as it doubles polyphony. I hardly run out of voices these days.

Clicks can be caused by clipping when a mix of voices hits the headroom.
E.g. clicks can happen when sounds 'travel' from the voice area to the fx area and several voices are played at once. Always set the fx input module to the -6 dB setting on polyphonic patches and the output module in the fx area to +6dB to compensate the -6dB. Works many times.

Clipping against the headroom is definitely an issue if filters are set to a high resonance and the GC button is Off. Keep the GC button On.

Do not attempt to 'boost' signal levels in the G2 itself, outside the system headroom nothing exists. So always keep signals within the headroom. Digital systems are not like recording tape that can be driven into saturation. Boost the signal in the mixer the G2 is connected to.

The reverb is very unforgiving when it gets too much input level, any single sample that clips can produce a whole reverberated cloud of clicks.

There sometimes was some clicks in the delay modules in OS V1.2. Download OS V1.22 from the Clavia site and install it to solve this issue.

If none of this is of any help to you, you must send in a patch that demonstrates the clipping you are talking about. As only if it doesn't happen on other people's machine you might have a hardware problem. If it does happen on other machines people might give you some advice to avoid it.
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow that's a great checklist of things to investigate.Thanks a lot,Rob.Some of your suggestions I believe I've covered,eg:polyphony:I'm only playing single notes on many of these patches,since they're complex,evolving timbres;envelope attack times: most these are quite slow.But I'll go over your list again,because ther are some things there that I haven't looked at.It's never come up on any my other synths before,so I've been scratching my head a bit.

Elektro.I know what you mean about the Paul White editorial,but I was paricularly referring to the Priviledges thing,which the Mac seems to have picked up from Windows.It's a good and bad thing:maybe some sort of meaningful alert would help the user,should the issue arise. Very Happy
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually,Rob,may I send you a patch or two,if you don't mind.It would be interesting to find out if you hear too.How shall I go about this?
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I reckon you can just attach a file here.. to your next post.. Very Happy
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mosc
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Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 17552
Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 123
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Straw,

You can just post a patch here. Use the attachment freature when you post a reply...
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks,chaps.Here are a couple of example patches.Similar in sound,work progress type thing.Best to play one note,C3 or something,to hear what I'm on about.By the way,Rob,pardon my ignorance,but what is the GC button you referred to in your list of suggestions?Thanks everybody....


Another Life.pch2
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 Filename:  Another Life.pch2
 Filesize:  5.15 KB
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's the other one! Embarassed


Lake Ambient.pch2
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 Filename:  Lake Ambient.pch2
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I listened to Another Life, nice patch. I could hear the clicks with headphones. I started from the back of the patch and started eliminating modules. First, I just disconnected the output and connected it to the FX in. Still clicks, can't be anything in the FX section. Continuing backwards, it seems to be coming from the filter module just before the envelope generator. I turned on the GC on the filters and the clicks seem to be gone. I also followed Rob's suggestion and set tip pad down -6 dB on the FX input. Here's a photo to show you the GC buttons.

Try similar techniques on the second patch and I'm sure you'll get the clicks out.


gc-demo.jpg
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GC buttons on filters.
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gc-demo.jpg


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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're a star mosc!Thank you very much.I do programme synths (when I get the time),and am reluctant to admit that I go as far back as owning Moog and Arp back in the '70's.But i never got into the modulars,and even though this is virtual,the principal's the same.Thanks for the diagram,too:really helpful.Let me know if wnat somefreebie patches! Very Happy
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Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 578
Location: The Hague/Netherlands/EC
G2 patch files: 109

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

strawinsky wrote:
what is the GC button you referred to in your list of suggestions?


GC stands for Gain Control and is coupled to the resonance of the filter. Turning up the resonance on a filter creates a peak with more amplitude than the incoming signal. Some filters, like the 12dB, can have a significant boost of this resonance peak, driving the peak to the headroom limits and causing clipping. The GC button attenuates the filter output if the resonance is raised, to compensate the extra gain in the peak. So, on the 12dB the GC should be On, light up that is, or else the signal into the 12dB should be attenuated first to some 25% to allow for resonance settings of 5 and up.

The Nord filter can also significantly boost the resonance peak, so here the GC button should be On as well, except when one really knows what one is doing, e.g. resonance not much more than say 1.25.

The Classic filter in itself compensated the resonance peak gain, as this type of filter attenuates the lowpass band up to -12dB when the resonance is raised. Similar to the Moog ladder filter. So, this filter is safer to use on higher resonance settings, and is also the most 'liquid' sounding of the G2 filters. But some extra EQ in the low is often used to beef up the low that gets lost by the -12dB at higher resonances. In this case be sure that the EQ band is lower than the lowest pitch the peak will have in a filter sweep, to prevent the peak being boosted by the EQ, which again could result in clipping.

In general the headroom of the G2 is small, only 12dB of the total 144dB range of the 24 bits. But it is very well possible to work with signals at a relatively low amplitude in the patch itself. E.g. a raw oscillator output has a resolution of some 22 bits, and by attenuating that to 25% it is still about 20 bits, more than enough for a perfect sound quality but giving 24 dB of headroom.
It is tempting to set everything in a patch to 'loud', but all digital systems are quite unforgiving about 'loud', rule of thumb is to make it 'loud' in the (analog) mixer. Which everybody here in The Netherlands seems to do with D&R mixing desks.
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Rob



Joined: Mar 29, 2004
Posts: 578
Location: The Hague/Netherlands/EC
G2 patch files: 109

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Problems... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

strawinsky wrote:

I'm (still) waiting for Clavia to answer this.



Well, Clavia is simply too small a company to be able to answer all user issues that are in essence lack of experience. In fact, the support is always through the distributors.
But don't worry, to answer questions is what we all are here for. It is actually much better to direct any question to this forum, as the answers will be available for everyone. It also keeps the load of the Clavia programmers to answer the same questions from different people over and over again, so they can keep on using their little time on what is most important for us, the further development of the G2.

And if the specialists on this list don't know, well, some seem to know the backdoor to get the deeper answers from Clavia, so it can be published here for all.
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strawinsky



Joined: Aug 16, 2004
Posts: 9
Location: UK
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good point.Thanks Rob. It's only the G2 I've experienced this with,and it is a new synth to me,but programming has proved to be relatively painless,thank God.Time,for me,as always is the enemy.Nice friendly forum,this....BTW,I guessed it was gain control but couldn't see the wood for the trees!
Last edited by strawinsky on Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rob wrote:
[GC stands for Gain Control and is coupled to the resonance of the filter. Turning up the resonance on a filter creates a peak with more amplitude than the incoming signal. Some filters, like the 12dB, can have a significant boost of this resonance peak, driving the peak to the headroom limits and causing clipping.


Great advice!
Clipping and peaks are not really something new. This is well known from analog gear and many oldstyle patches .. like "sequencer driven stepfiltering" ( setting up a pattern with a sequencer so that the filter settings are changed for each step ) could very often create some very nasty peaks. That is why I still have a box of old compressors somewhere. So far from what I have seen of the NM1 ( classic ) pretty much the same rules apply . The effects of peaks/clipping are of course slightly different and digital gear is not as forgiving as analog designs could be.

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