electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Living VCOs
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites
Page 5 of 21 [516 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, ..., 19, 20, 21 Next

Would you prefer one PCB with 3 VCOs a la JH-5A, or 1 VCO per PCB with more features
One PCB with Oscillator Driver and 3 VCO cores (like JH-5A - cheap!)
60%
 60%  [ 62 ]
1 PCB = 1 VCO (with many waveforms and inputs)
39%
 39%  [ 40 ]
Total Votes : 102

Author Message
/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
synthetic wrote:
I assume that daisy-chaining the power is OK? I would probably put in one power jack and hot-wire the four sections together.

I've put 4 connectors there toallow star-wiring.
It will certainly work with daisy-chaning, too.
Wheter there is a tiny difference in terms of absence of interlocking is yet to bee seen.

I would definitely avoid daisy-chaining in this particular application.
Mostly for psychological reasons, but anyway. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
synthetic



Joined: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 76
Location: Glendale, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess I don't understand why there are four power connectors. Interlocking?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Krelnarb



Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Richmond, CA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So the star configuration is to avoid interlocking? But except for the cable lengths, once they go to the power distribution board it's electrically identical to them being Daisey chained.

Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Star or Daisey, this VCO(s) is exciting! Thank you so much for all your work.

Cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Elektron City, Sweden
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Krelnarb wrote:
So the star configuration is to avoid interlocking? But except for the cable lengths, once they go to the power distribution board it's electrically identical to them being Daisey chained.

Only if you use superconductors for power cables.
I personally don't. Laughing

Current draw varies with the VCO cycle. The (albeit small, but finite) resistance of the supply lines then makes fluctuations in the supply voltage. The VCOs will be modulated by these variations to some extent if they sit on the same power cable. Since the purpose of the Living VCOs is to actually make use of small frequency differences between oscillators, it is a good idea to minimize such possible errors at least as much as we normally do, if not even more. And normally we have separate VCOs, on separate power cables!

If I would design a board like this myself, maybe I wouldn't even have thought about having multiple power connectors. But now Jürgen has included them, and that's great. If I would daisy-chain them, I would never know if the result is as good as it could be with separate cables. If I use separate cables, it doesn't matter if it is better or if it doesn't matter. Therefore I use weparate cables. I simply don't want to want to know the truth. Smile

(If you're considering daisy-chaining because you don't want to spend 4 connectors on your power supply board, then use 4 cables from the Living VCO board and let them meet in one connector on the power supply board. That's probably better than daisy-chaining.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just want to make sure that nothing will go wrong.

In the JH-5, I *have* the power daisy-chained, btw!
(Only using one connector, and distributing the power from there, on-board.)
But on the JH-5, *I* have control over the power cable lenght (just a few centimeters to the PSU). Someone else my use the Living VCOs in a huge cabinet with a meter of power cable - I wouldn't want the inductance of this shared between VCOs.

In addition to this, I have ferrites on-board for each VCO.

Plus, the "linear detune" feature helps avoiding interlock as well.

(Still not quite ready for testing the board, but almost ...)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Started to make tests.

Working under harder conditions, I *did* daisy-chain the power supply.
And the VCOs don't lock!
And in the video, you can see the fluctuating beat rate, at a VCO frequency of about 1.2kHz.
(I didn't touch any knob during the video, and the Linear Detune feature isn't even activated yet.)

JH.


living_beat_rate.MOV
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  living_beat_rate.MOV
 Filesize:  11.3 MB
 Downloaded:  2394 Time(s)


_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 264
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, so forgive me for being a little slow...

"not locking" is a good thing right? Sort of the idea behind the "living" part of this trio of VCO's?

Thanks for the video. The videographer reflected in the scope display looks strangely familiar, like someone who spends a lot of time holding a soldering iron : )

I am quite excited to build these things!

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dingebre wrote:

"not locking" is a good thing right?


Yes! Locking prevents a pair of VCOs beating at a very slow rate: When the two frequencies are too close together, they sync. With some exceptions (I only know one!) this is a bad thing. That's why this is the first thing I've tested: With 3 VCOs being in such close proximity, I wanted to be certain that it doesn't happen. It tested good! Very Happy


Quote:

Sort of the idea behind the "living" part of this trio of VCO's?


There's more to the "living" part. Not locking is standard - that's nothing special.
The two main features that made me choose that name are the linear detuning feature that allows low frequency mistracking as known from linear (Hz/V) VCOs, and the right amount of built-in pitch fluctuations that has been inspired by the EMS VCS3.

More later, as testing proceeds.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 264
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:

Yes! Locking prevents a pair of VCOs beating at a very slow rate: When the two frequencies are too close together, they sync. With some exceptions (I only know one!) this is a bad thing. That's why this is the first thing I've tested: With 3 VCOs being in such close proximity, I wanted to be certain that it doesn't happen. It tested good! Very Happy

There's more to the "living" part. Not locking is standard - that's nothing special.
The two main features that made me choose that name are the linear detuning feature that allows low frequency mistracking as known from linear (Hz/V) VCOs, and the right amount of built-in pitch fluctuations that has been inspired by the EMS VCS3.

More later, as testing proceeds.

JH.


OK. I re-read the information on your site and in other posts. I am slowly getting the idea. It's more interesting and appealing the more and better I understand.

Thanks JH

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First audio demo!

13.5 MByte mp3

First dry: just VCOs thru VCA.
Then VCOs thru SSM2040 filter, VCA and Reverb.

http://www.jhaible.de/living_vcos/living_vcos%20_1.mp3

Picture from the testbench:
http://www.jhaible.de/living_vcos/jh_living_vcos.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 264
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice!

I'd like to start on a panel design. Will the controls be comparable to the JH-5 VCO pictured on your web site?

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dingebre wrote:
Nice!

I'd like to start on a panel design. Will the controls be comparable to the JH-5 VCO pictured on your web site?

David


Almost. Some minor details may be different.
3 ten-turn potentiometers instead of 2, maybe.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 264
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perfect. I can get the basics started then.

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
loss1234



Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Posts: 1535
Location: nyc
Audio files: 41

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this looks like a great project...three vcos in one panel would really save a lot of space too
_________________
-------------------------------------------- check out various dan music at: http://www.myspace.com/lossnyc
http://www.myspace.com/snazelle
http://www.soundclick.com/lossnyc.htm http://www.indie911.com/dan-snazelle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:30 pm    Post subject: taking pre-orders now! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

the pre-order phase of my "living VCOs" project has begun.

(See http://www.jhaible.de/living_vcos/jh_living_vcos.html
for details about the project.)


Pricing is EUR 27.00 per board (that's for 3 VCOs plus an oscillator driver!)
plus a single EUR 6.00 shipping flat charge for worldwide shipping,
regardless how many boards you are ordering and where you live.
It does *not* include any customs fees or tax that you may (or may not) have
to pay in your county.

What you get is a double-sided printed circuit board with component overlay,
approx. size 160mm x 100mmm.

You have to buy the electronic components for this, and build the device,
yourself. (Check the above website regularly for updates and building hints,
bill of matrials etc.)

If you want to place a pre-order, please send me an email to the following
adress:
jhaible@debitel.net

and use the FOLLOWING FORM (fill in your data instead of [],
for instance: "2 Boards" instead of "[quantity] Boards")

===== Start of Email Order Form ===============

Subject line: Living VCOs PCB order: [quantity] boards

Email text:

I'm ordering [quantity] pieces of the Living VCOs PCB
for EUR 27.00 per board + EUR 6.00 single shipping flat charge for any
number of boards.
I'm aware that I may have to pay additional amounts of customs and tax in my
country.

I'm aware that I'm only buying blank PCBs that may help me building an
electonic module - I'm *not* buying a diy kit, not a "project" - just pieces
of FR4 with copper traces.
I know how to build electronic circuits and I am trained in electrical safety matters.
The seller of these PCBs will not be held responsible for any damage that results
from these PCBs, directly or indirectly.

My shipping adress is

[Your Name]
[Your street, number, city, ZIP code, in exactly the form
that is generally used in your country]
[your country]

My paypal adress is [your paypal adress].

I===== End of Email Order Form =========

Looking forward to hear fom you Smile

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
johans121



Joined: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Memphis, TN (USA)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Order placed!!!

SWEET!

_________________
Don't feed me Indian, you WILL regret it!

-Jim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dingebre



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 264
Location: Salt Lake City, UT USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Me too. Order placed.

Thanks JH.

David

_________________
David M. Ingebretsen, M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Enginering, Inc.

dingebre@3dphysics.net
http://www.xmission.com/~dingebre/Synthasystem.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
parasitk



Joined: Sep 21, 2008
Posts: 69
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

order placed!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 980
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

2 boards ordered!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm really overwhelmed how many orders came in in such a short time. It's probably the fastest "ramp up" of any of my projects so far!

Very Happy

I start to work on the BOM now. No really exotic components. (Three tempco resistors, of course.)

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
Audio files: 24

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BOM is up.

http://www.jhaible.de/living_vcos/jh_living_vcos.html

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
eframp



Joined: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Atlanta, GA
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

order placed
_________________
Eric Frampton, keyboards Atlanta, GA
www.ericframpton.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Krelnarb



Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 23
Location: Richmond, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

order placed for 2.

thank you,
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2thick4uni



Joined: Feb 20, 2009
Posts: 113
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jurgen,

Order already placed for 2 boards.

I'm considering using one of the boards in a stand alone performance synth, I can add triangle and sine waveforms easily with a small daughterboard, but is it possible to add sync to two of the VCO's? I understand that a lot of design effort has gone into getting it so the VCO's free run when very close in frequency, but if I could add a sync switch too it would be very useful.

I know that schematic hasn't been posted yet, just need a yes or no at this stage as I'm not sure if the VCO core follows usual integrator / comparator sawtooth design............
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Juergen,is this the design where a part of the 3046 is used already to have a temp compensation inside,but u just add an xtra tempco on it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites
Page 5 of 21 [516 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, ..., 19, 20, 21 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use