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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
What are all the ADSR's out there to build?
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LetterBeacon wrote:
nicolas3141 wrote:
The interest is encouraging me to tidy up and share more of my modules.

Please do!

My super simple LFO design is up and I will also post a voltage controlled LFO in the next few days:
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-32372.html

Cheers,
Nicolas
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rubendelacosta



Joined: Dec 25, 2005
Posts: 151
Location: lisbon

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

got your adsr working and i'm planning to build a few more Very Happy
can't wait to see you voltage controlled lfo!
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Pehr



Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow! nicolas! ncie designs Smile with LM324! Very Happy
I've got tons of those ICs Rolling Eyes
Do you have any LM324 VC filter design? Wink Very Happy

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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

rubendelacosta wrote:
can't wait to see you voltage controlled lfo!

There now in this other thread
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-229914.html

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been thinking about the +/-15V question. It might be okay, but you may need to put in an additional protection diode for the transistor. At +/-9V supply it gets subjected to up to 7V of reverse voltage which it seems to handle in practice, but is actually slightly in excess of what the datasheet recommends. With higher power supply voltages the extra reverse voltage might be too much for it.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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camelneck



Joined: Sep 27, 2008
Posts: 68
Location: KY (USA)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
Here's my ultra simple ADSR that can also retrigger itself to behave like an LFO . . .


Nicolas,
I really like this simple one chip design, and may build several of these myself. I have 3 questions I'd like to ask just in case you happen to know the answers.

1) Using the same component values that are shown on the schematic, what is the maximum attack time, decay time, and release time you get? (It don't have to be exact since the pot tolerance can effect this by 10 to 20%.)

2a) In regards to the trigger switch and the diode it is connected to, what is the minimum voltage that must be applied to the diode (cathode end) in order for the ADSR to re-trigger?

2b) Instead of the retrigger out signal, have you ever tried to apply a 8V - 12V "keyboard trigger" signal to the cathode of the diode instead?

I think this would allow this ADSR to work with keyboards that have both "gate" and "trigger" outputs provided the trigger pulse is wide enough. (Otherwise, the trigger input would need some processing.)

If only a gate input is applied to the ADSR, it would function in "single-trigger mode" (with the 10nF cap providing the trigger signal each time the gate signal is applied.). On the other hand, if both a gate and trigger input are applied to the ADSR, it could be "multi-triggered" (the trigger signal could re-trigger the ADSR independent of the gate signal.)

Better yet, the SPST Switch could be replaced with a DPDT switch (on-off-on) that could be labeled something like this: Multi-Trigger/Single Trigger/Re-trigger. In the first position, "multi-trigger", the diode is connected to the trigger input. In the third position, "re-trigger", the diode is connected to the "retrigger" out signal. In the center position, "single trigger", the diode receives no input signal.

David
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

camelneck wrote:

1) Using the same component values that are shown on the schematic, what is the maximum attack time, decay time, and release time you get? (It don't have to be exact since the pot tolerance can effect this by 10 to 20%.)


On my prototype the attack ranges from very quick through to nearly 10s. Decay is similar. Release can extend out to about 30s. Fairly typical sort of values I think. For some things like handclap type percussion or space music type pads you might want faster or slower than this can do, but not for most things and adjusting a few resistors you could move the range anyway.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

camelneck wrote:

2a) In regards to the trigger switch and the diode it is connected to, what is the minimum voltage that must be applied to the diode (cathode end) in order for the ADSR to re-trigger?

2b) Instead of the retrigger out signal, have you ever tried to apply a 8V - 12V "keyboard trigger" signal to the cathode of the diode instead?

I think this would allow this ADSR to work with keyboards that have both "gate" and "trigger" outputs provided the trigger pulse is wide enough. (Otherwise, the trigger input would need some processing.)

If only a gate input is applied to the ADSR, it would function in "single-trigger mode" (with the 10nF cap providing the trigger signal each time the gate signal is applied.). On the other hand, if both a gate and trigger input are applied to the ADSR, it could be "multi-triggered" (the trigger signal could re-trigger the ADSR independent of the gate signal.)

Better yet, the SPST Switch could be replaced with a DPDT switch (on-off-on) that could be labeled something like this: Multi-Trigger/Single Trigger/Re-trigger. In the first position, "multi-trigger", the diode is connected to the trigger input. In the third position, "re-trigger", the diode is connected to the "retrigger" out signal. In the center position, "single trigger", the diode receives no input signal.

David


The triggering voltage pumped into the diode needs to be at least 0.7V higher than the output voltage of the ADSR at that point in time (and needs to last about half a millisecond or longer). So to guarantee success it needs to 0.7V higher than the maximum output voltage which is determined by the upper trigger level of the schmitt trigger formed by the central op-amp. With +/-9V supply and the two 1M resistors shown in my drawing that means about 4.5V would do it. With the +/-15V and the R4 and R5 values shown in Matts drawing you would need over 10V to guarantee it.

Either way the schmitt trigger on the upper left that we use when in LFO mode will do the trick as its output goes to within a couple of volts of the supply.

So if you want to connect it the trigger output of a keyboard or sequencer it should work too as long the pulse voltage is something approaching the +ve supply voltage and the pulse width is somewhere around the millisecond range.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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Dego



Joined: Apr 22, 2008
Posts: 139
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am building this project now (ADSR based on LM324).

I will let you now how it works. Smile

Nicolas, did you design a 9 volt VCA as well? Wink
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hope it goes well for you.

Yes, I have filter, VCA and sample/hold/glide designs based around LM13600/13700. But I have been a bit too busy just recently and haven't had time to tidy up the drawings. Will do when I get the chance.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi smidirin

It should start at 0V, go up to a few V, then settle back to 0V again. For 0-10V output you will need +/-15V power supply or at least +/-12V. LM348 or TL074 are better choices than LM324 at the higher voltage.

Check that the negative opamp power connection is to -15V. Check that all the 0V points in the circuit diagram are properly connected to 0V. And double check the connection of the PNP transistor for wrong way round, dry joint, etc. Hope you find the problem.

Cheers,
Nicolas


> gday,
> over the weekend i have built 2 of your superbly simple lm324 adsr's. Cool
> first one i used tl074 cos i couldnt find my 324 stash.
> after some confusion with the pot connections i got it working.
> i used 2n3906 pnp and also fonik's 390k to up the output.
> the strange thing is i get an output offset about +6v with about 4v envelope.
> so i built another one, i found a lm348 lying around so i used that.
> all same parts as before. and same result.
> is this a offboard wiring issue? or choice of ic? or part of the design? i
> want to use these 2 with a dualvca i built not long ago. lookin for 0-10v swing.
> forgot, i have added the led indicator form fonik schematic as well.
>
> thanks nicolas!
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smidirin



Joined: May 01, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: analogfx.studio

PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey, thanks again..
so..

Quote:
For 0-10V output you will need +/-15V power supply or at least +/-12V. LM348 or TL074 are better choices than LM324 at the higher voltage.


yeah forgot to mention it is on +/-15V.
2n3906 is double checked for orientation.
opamp is pwr'd.
all 0v are grounded.
both units slightly diff layout (strip vs. proto) with exactly same thing happening though.

so to confirm: offboard i have 2 diodes (1 on attack, 1 on sustain) & 3 resistors (1 on attack, 2 on sustain).
did i miss somethin???
didn't think i could make the same mistake twice. Rolling Eyes

s.
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

smidirin wrote:
yeah forgot to mention it is on +/-15V.
2n3906 is double checked for orientation.
opamp is pwr'd.
all 0v are grounded.
both units slightly diff layout (strip vs. proto) with exactly same thing happening though.


At the end of the cycle when it should be decaying away to zero, check the output voltage of the opamp handling the gate input (lower left in the diagram) and the flip-flop opamp (in the middle of the diagram). At the end of the cycle they should both be outputting as negative as they can, about -12V. If either of them is outputting a positive voltage that is a problem and you need to review the resistor values connected to the input of that opamp. Remember I worked out the resistor values for +/-9V supply so at +/-15V there may be tweaks required.

And check the voltages on the three legs of the transistor. Remember the 2N3906 has its legs the opposite way around from the BC559. Should be something like: C = zero volts, E = zero or just a few millivolts positive, B = somewhat negative, maybe about a volt or so.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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slacker



Joined: Nov 18, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
Remember I worked out the resistor values for +/-9V supply so at +/-15V there may be tweaks required.


If it's any help I built mine with the standard resistor values and it works fine at +/-15 volts. The only change I made was to replace the 1M resistor in the feedback loop of the middle opamp with a 470k to get the peak output up to about 10 volts.
If you like I can measure the voltages off mine if that will help with the debugging.
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smidirin



Joined: May 01, 2007
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Location: analogfx.studio

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:52 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@slacker, that would be useful to me.
i built another (my 3rd) on a breadboard last night.
just gotta find some more pots and hook up the power.
previous layouts are both way too tight to measure (no gator clips here).

Quote:
middle opamp with a 470k to get the peak output up to about 10 volts.
If you like I can measure the voltages off mine if that will help with the debugging.


i used 390k like fonik but yeah same here.
i measured 6.43v instead of zero! peak between 9.2 & 9.4.


@nicolas
Quote:
Hope you find the problem.

not given up yet! pesky though..

s.
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smidirin



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well,
i haven't fixed the first 2 but the breadboard worked first go.
i reused the same pots with their parts and wiring so it's looking like a botched resistor value in the others.
at least i can take some voltages and compare resistor stripes, then should be sorted.

you can get some nice shapes outta this little adsr!

thanks all.
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smidirin



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

solved.
C&E were the culprit..
on the indicatorLED tranny Embarassed
had checked everything else x3 Exclamation

s. Laughing
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rehibot



Joined: Feb 27, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
It might be okay, but you may need to put in an additional protection diode for the transistor


Is this what you meant Nicolas?

----image deleted-----

Edit: deleted incorrect diagram to avoid any possible confusion. (I had the diode drawn in anti-parallel to the transistor's BE junction)

Last edited by rehibot on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No I was thinking of this:


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rehibot



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Nicolas, I appreciate your work
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adamon



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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Any thoughts on getting an ADSR like this to run on a +/-4.5V (0-9V) supply? I've been dead set on keeping my system running on a 0-9V supply, but I'm really starting to want/need some envelopes! The simplicity of Nicolas' stuff is very appealing, but I don't have the know-how to figure out if this could work or what would need to be changed if it is possible...

One thing I should mention is that I'd like to just drive an LED only at the output; I'll just be driving the LED end of a vactrol with this, so I'm not too concerned with the output level.

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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The adsr itself should run okay on +/-4.5V (9V battery with a virtual ground cicruit I presume?), but the peak envelope voltage will probably only be about 1.5V, so you will need something a little extra to get it to drive the vactrol. See the attached pic for a suggestion. Basically using a transistor to create a reference voltage of about -1.5V. I suggest initially connecting a red led and watching it to make sure it is dark at rest and lights up when the ADSR is triggered. Reduce the 5k if it is not going fully dark when at rest. Or reduce the 13K to make it more sensitive. Adjust the 500R to adjust the max current at the peak of the attack. Wire in the vactrol when it all seems to be working okay.

Cheers,
Nicolas


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adamon



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, that looks great Nicolas! Yes, I'm planning on using a virtual ground. I figured the circuit should run fine but was concerned with what would be coming out of it. Looks like the transistor should give me enough control over it though. Will my inputs need to be adjusted as well?

thanks for your help Nicolas, it is greatly appreciated!

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oozitron



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've built this ADSR on protoboard, and now that I have Q1 oriented the correct direction (!) it's behaving much better, but still not right.

I think it might have to do with how the pots are wired. I've been going by Fonik's very nice schematic, but then when I look at his PCB picture I get confused.

The Decay pot wiper (marked pin #3?) connects to LM324 Pin 12. But on the PCB image it appears that the Decay wiper connects to the Diode.

I guess I'm confused by the [1, 2, 3] that identify the pins on the pots. Shouldn't the wiper (center) pin always be #2?

thanks in advance!
Drew
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cypher



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all!
Please, I am looking for a very simple design ADSR with current only 5-6 V DC supply. Please can someone give some advice, which of the design can be usable on such a such low (5V) power supply (preferably 555 based one)?
Thanks very much for any advise.
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