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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
A new'ish oscillator type maybe?
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:36 am    Post subject:  A new'ish oscillator type maybe? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey all. I don't what you're all using for oscillators out there in the Lunetta world, but I think I came up with a new twist on one, last night before I fell asleep.

My very first synth / Lunetta type machine that I built in 1986, used the CD4011 quad NAND Gate, where you have a pair of them connected together. Both inputs for each of the NAND gates, were hooked up together on each of the NANDs. A resistor before the first; a variable resistor between the 2 NANDs and a capacitor at the output of the 2nd one. The other end of each resistor and cap., tied together.

My modification back then, was to have 1 of the 2 inputs of the first NAND gate tied to a switch, so that the 1st NAND's 2nd input could be connected to either it's other input, or to an external device, to switch it on and off, along with the output of the 2nd NAND Gate.

This provided me with the ability to do a modulated Pulse Width waveform type of sound!

My idea that I had last night, was to do this with a THREE input NAND gate! For this method, I would have 2 of the 3 inputs individually switchable either to the 3rd input, or to external devices!

This would give 2 separate abilities for modulating the Pulse Width of the resultant sound. The changing harmonic possibilities for this could be huge!

When I get home from work this afternoon, this will be my very first circuit that I will be testing on bread board, for my coming Lunetta machine. If the results are as good as I think they will be, I'll record them to an MP3 and upload them for everyone else to hear.

Switching the 2 inputs on an off with external sequencers / voltage controllable switches, could sound wonderful!

Another idea that I had, which I hope to work on this afternoon as well, is slapping an R2R onto the output of a CD4514 4 to 16 decoder. (The brain from Ray Wilson's MFOS Sequencer.) Each of the 16 outputs could also be patched in to a VCable Switch, to turn the 2 inputs to the 3 Input NAND Gate, on and off.

Anticipating fun fun fun! Shall see how it goes. Smile

My only worry at the beginnings of building my Lunetta machine, are not yet having enough banana plugs, jacks and LEDs. Sad
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synthmonger



Joined: Nov 16, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds cool! Schematic needed! Very Happy
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synthmonger wrote:
Sounds cool! Schematic needed! Very Happy


Coming right up in this message! I'll scan what I just finished drawing, after success in my test! I just came up to lay her out in a PCB in software and cook the board. I'll post the schematic here first though. 1 sec ....... sorta. Wink

K. 20 minutes or so later, here it be:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

I haven't heard what it sounds like yet, but some of the waveforms on the 'scope, blew me away. Very Happy Once I get the final version of the module done, I'll record an mp3 of manual control adjustment to give an earlier idea as to what's possible from it.
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synthmonger



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks neat. Waiting patiently on the mp3 ;D Is it too much to ask for scope pics?
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synthmonger wrote:
Looks neat. Waiting patiently on the mp3 ;D Is it too much to ask for scope pics?


I'm just in the middle of scanning / mirroring my PCB for it. Will print it out now to PnP and take the camera downstairs with me to shoot some 'scope photos, as I still have the test circuit above, on my breadboard. Smile

MP3(s) once I get the first module built. If all goes well, sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening. (Running out of time. GF will be home in an hour or so.)
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slacker



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks interesting, sort of like a more advanced version of the NAND synth gated oscillator idea.
Look forward to some clips.
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

'Scope pics of the bread boarded test setup:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

These were all taken after making adjustments to each of the 3 controls. 2 of the controls were for modulators of the oscillator. The 3rd control was for the oscillator.

I hope to have my first mp3 available tomorrow. Smile
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synthmonger



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Gnarly lookin waveforms! Thanks Rych Very Happy
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

synthmonger wrote:
Gnarly lookin waveforms! Thanks Rych Very Happy


No troubles! Smile

It's more'n likely due to the size of the caps that I used. They're not being allowed enough time to discharge before they're charged again by 1 of the 3 clocks.
Once I hook the test unit up to hear it, I'll have an idea of the frequency ...... actually, I just did the math calculations using Fc = 1/(2*Pi*R*C) for the range 1K to 100K with a 2.2nF cap.

That would give me roughly 72 to 7300hz.

Doing the math again, a 4.7nF would give roughly 34hZ at the bottom end.

Roughly 7hZ at the bottom end with a 1M resistor. Hmmm. Will experiment to find the best range, as I enjoyed having the top end of the pot go beyond human hearing, with my very first (cough cough) 'synth' in '86.

Anyhoo ...... I'm just about to add a bit more to my PCB that I'm going to burn this afternoon. If I have it all completed later tonight, I'll post more 'scope pics and / or an mp3. Smile

I'm going to burn a PCB for 6 x CD40106 oscillators; 2 of the above triple input NAND Gate oscillators; 2 x 3 input NAND Gates and a dual CD4015 4 bit shift register.
And possibly a triple SPDT switch (the CD4053). (I already have a triple in my modular, but I'd like at least 1 for my Deathlehem Machine. Smile )

Off to finish the layouts.
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andrewF



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this looks good.
are you tapping outputs from the nodes where the 4k7 resistors go to the leds? so three outputs?
also what do the leds do? As in, for any frequency over 25Hz or so, are they 'on' continuously or do you still get some blinking, erratic or otherwise?
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

andrewF wrote:
this looks good.
are you tapping outputs from the nodes where the 4k7 resistors go to the leds? so three outputs?


I have the LEDs hooked up to the 4k7's at each of the outputs, only for reference.
The 'scope probe was hooked up to the output of the triple input NAND Gate.

Quote:

also what do the leds do? As in, for any frequency over 25Hz or so, are they 'on' continuously or do you still get some blinking, erratic or otherwise?


Reference only, for making sure that all of the clocks were working. Smile

To keep my LED wiring and count down, I'm going to set up 'LED inputs' so that I may feed anything into them. I'll start probably with 8. A nice round number. I'll then hook things up to them, that'll be frequency visible, as well as for checking on things visually, if I haven't the scope hooked up.

More on the 1st module in the next message. Smile
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Modular Deathlehem Machine #8 was prematurely born, at 8:25 p.m. Eastern Standard Time!! Very Happy

I'ze a proud new papa of my 2nd kid! (D.A.M.I.A.N. being me first)

Ok. The PCB was cooked. The sections that I will be wiring together in the next couple of days will include:

- 6 x CD40106 oscillators (1 completed tonight, to 'give birth' to the machine)

- 2 x (CD4023) triple IN NAND Gates Pulse Oscillators Each of them will have 2 of it's IN's switchable between external input, or through 100k to +V

- 2 x (CD4023 - the leftover ones) triple IN NAND Gate.

- 2 x CD4015 4 bit shift registers

- 3 x CD4053 Voltage Controllable SPDT switches. (There is a manual switch for each one which is Exclusive OR'd with the CV input, for each switch, so that a LOW or a HIGH on both at the same time, will set the switch to Output A. A LOW on 1 and a HIGH on another, will set the switch to Output B)

This will give me a start for my first Lunetta machine, in 8 years. I'll be able to have the 2 complex voices changing sounds in different ways from the functions of the 3 switches, as well as the 2 x 4 bit shift registers and unused CD40106 oscillators.

My goal, is to build a multi-'voiced' unit, that I'll be able to control the amplitudes of different voices as they play as well as myself playing them, for hopefully huge 'noise orchestrations'.

Wiring up the 46 jacks for the above could take longer than my building time tomorrow. Once it's all up and functioning though, will I then begin playing and recording. On Friday, I may do a PCB for the next module, which is as yet, undecided.
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is the 1st pic of the first panel for my new Lunetta synth - The Modular Deathlehem Machine #8! Smile

The panel consists of:

- 6 x CD40106 oscillators ( roughly 47 to 4700HZ on each of them, as measured on my 'scope. All 6 are up and running as of last night)
-- each of them has a frequency control; on / off switch and output
--- mistakenly, once of them is giving the triangle waveshape as it's output, centered slightly above Ground. Ooops.

- 2 x CD4023 Pulse Width Oscillators (not hooked up yet)
-- each of them has a frequency control; on / off switches for each of their 2 modulation inputs and an output

- 2 x CD4023 3 input NAND Gates (not hooked up yet)

- 2 x LEDs with inputs for activating them (for monitoring signals. Not hooked up yet.)

I'm going against my building standard for my other modular, of controls / switches etc. on the left of the 19" rack panel, with 1 1/4" spacing, and jacks on the right with 1" spacing.
All of my Lunetta panels are going with strictly 1" spacing for everything, using a 6" panel height. Panel widths, will be based on 1" increments. All of my panels will be using single sided copper PCB.

I hope to have the rest of this panel finished tonight, along with the first mp3 from it, posted to here.

PCBs have also been cooked for:

1 x 4 bit shift register
3 x voltage and manual controllable SPDT switches.

No panel has been made for them yet.

I can't wait to hear what this guy sounds like, so far! Smile
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aerogramma



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

supercool!

look forward to hear samples!

Wink
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hey, in that schematic you have posted up top, are those diodes LDR's? i cant quite tell...
thanks!
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
hey, in that schematic you have posted up top, are those diodes LDR's? i cant quite tell...
thanks!


No, they're just standard superbright LEDs. I used them only as references, to tell what was going on with each of the oscillators. Smile

Also - change note: the values that I have used in for the final unit that I had posted the mp3 of last night in the other thread:

- capacitor = 0.15uF
- resistor between cap. and 100k or 1m pot - 1K

Measuring with my 'scope for the frequency ranges, the 'scope showed me roughly 47hz to 4700hz over the full turn of the 100k pot.
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telstarmagikistferrari



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
All of my panels will be using single sided copper PCB


I love this idea Rych! Looks great.. You're a monster. I wish I could have 24 hours with a guy like you (or RF) to build synths/learn about building synths. I'm having trouble learning strictly on my own.

Mark
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Rykhaard



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Posts: 1290
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

telstarmagikistferrari wrote:
Quote:
All of my panels will be using single sided copper PCB


I love this idea Rych! Looks great.. You're a monster. I wish I could have 24 hours with a guy like you (or RF) to build synths/learn about building synths. I'm having trouble learning strictly on my own.

Mark


Then fire off the questions! I myself and me are more'n willing to answer any I'm able. Smile

Bruce is the Master though! He's gotten much farther ahead in this than I have. My previous 7 Deathlehem Machines were all simple in operation. This one is going to be the most complex one yet. (Taking influences from my main modular D.A.M.I.A.N. as well.)

I know far and away from everything, but I've learned bits and pieces here and there over the years and more'n willing to share. Smile
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monokinetic



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hiya Ryk,
I'm in the process of laying this out and just realised that you mentioned some changes to the schematic you posted. Could I double check a few things?

Rykhaard wrote:

- capacitor = 0.15uF
.


I guess you mean the capacitor in the feedback path of the 4023 being changed to 0.15uF electrolytic?

Rykhaard wrote:

- resistor between cap. and 100k or 1m pot - 1K
.


Does this mean adding an additional 1k resistor between the cap (again in the feedback path) and what you have marked as the 100k pot going to the middle input of the second half of the 4023? (geez thats probably a confusing description, hope you can decypher it!)

TIA

David
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

monokinetic wrote:
Hiya Ryk,
I'm in the process of laying this out and just realised that you mentioned some changes to the schematic you posted. Could I double check a few things?

Rykhaard wrote:

- capacitor = 0.15uF
.


I guess you mean the capacitor in the feedback path of the 4023 being changed to 0.15uF electrolytic?


Now - that IS a good question! That's one of the 1st modules that I built, last month and I can't remember for sure, EXCEPT:

The cap. values that I used for the 40106 portions and within the 4023 feedback loop, all determine the overall frequency ranges of the modulating oscillators (40106's) and the main oscillator itself.

I believe that I went with 1 or 2.2uF for the modulation oscillators and 0.15uF (ceramic or poly film) within the 4023. THOUGH - the 4023, COULD be a 1 or 2.2uF. I'd have to pop the panel out to check, for sure.

Rykhaard wrote:

- resistor between cap. and 100k or 1m pot - 1K
.


Does this mean adding an additional 1k resistor between the cap (again in the feedback path) and what you have marked as the 100k pot going to the middle input of the second half of the 4023? (geez thats probably a confusing description, hope you can decypher it!)

TIA

David[/quote]

The pots for the modulation oscillators I went with 1 meg + a 1K resistor. The 1K is to prevent the oscillator from bottoming out, with no resistance (IIRC). Others have used 10k and 100k. I found that it still worked fine with a 1k in there. Smile
The 1 meg pot, gives a wider range of oscillation as well.

In the 4023's loop, you can use 100k or higher. I BELIEVE that I had used a 100k, as I had on my originl 4011 oscillators, back in '86. Wink

Lemme know if you wish me to pop the panel to verify all of the values. Any other questions, fire them away! Smile Looking forward to hearing yours module, as well! Very Happy
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monokinetic



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheers Ryk,
That's fantastically helpful as ever! Don't worry about popping the panel off for now, I'll see what comes up through building it.

If i get really stuck I might request popping off after that Wink

David
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

monokinetic wrote:
Cheers Ryk,
That's fantastically helpful as ever! Don't worry about popping the panel off for now, I'll see what comes up through building it.

If i get really stuck I might request popping off after that Wink

David


Right then Dave! I no worry about it for the mo'! Smile

Funny thing though - your message triggered a mildly new idea in my head a few minutes after I read it:

2 x VCOs, modulating the 4023, instead of the 2 manually adjustable oscillators. That would give essentially, VCable Pulse Width Extreme! Very Happy (Seeing how the 4023 operates, with my idea.)

If I have room in the panel FOR the PWOsc, I'll add 2 jacks to receive external input and try it out.

In doing so, I'll have to remove the panel anyways. At the same time, I'll note the values of everything related to the PWOsc and type them in here in a reply.
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