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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
"Son Of Storm Tide" Flanger
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interested?
yes
97%
 97%  [ 41 ]
no
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 42

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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 991
Location: Austin, TX
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi JH,

I have a couple of hopefully easy questions that are regarding calibration. I don't expect an immediate answer and will not pester you, but it would be nice and in this case totally reasonable to expect an eventual reply, since it's about understanding how to set the board up for "proper" operation, which I think is reasonable to expect when purchasing a board from you. I know you did offer some calibration information, but your description for one of the trimmers in particular was vague to me and I'm unable to figure it out and for another I'm not noticing the effect you described it possibly having so I need further clarification.

1) For the ClkLow trimmer, you said to set to 30KHz, but, where do we measure this? When I measure the clock signals at pins 1 & 4 of the TDA1022s I don't see this trimmer effecting the frequency of the clock signal there at all. When I probe at R25, from the wiper of the ClkLow trimmer, I just see any mod signal coming in before it, the LFO signal, for example, and this trimmer simply seems to alter its voltage level - from completely "grounded" to full. Again, no effect on any "rate" where I could measure 30KHz. Am I doing something wrong? More info on where to measure exactly and how to set this would be greatly appreciated.

2) For the MaxClk trimmer, I have not yet noticed it to weaken the signal at any setting. If it sounds fine to me turned fully CW should I leave it there, or does it make more sense to set it close to the center setting or scaled back a bit? Any particular kind of signal I should use that would be more pronounced for trimming this? I tried a pretty bright pad sound and could not tell the difference at any setting. I could not see any effect either on the clock signal at the TDA chips or at the emitter of Q1 with tweaking this trimmer. Anywhere I can probe to actually see the effects of this trimmer?

Thank you.
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StephenGiles



Joined: Apr 17, 2006
Posts: 502
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Best to set up by ear, then it'll sound just as you want it to.
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sduck



Joined: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 459
Location: Nashville
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, I get quite a bit of popping with the S&H input, both with and without an input, but as that's kind of a special effects setting that one wouldn't normally use, it doesn't bother me. For 95% of the things I would do with this device I'll be using the ramp setting.

One thing I discovered is finding the real center of the sweep knob for testing - mine is at about 12:30 oclock - at that spot you get a real triangle wave and the cleanest modulation - this might help clean up your signal a little.

Sorry, didn't check the ext mod in.

I'm sure you most likely know this, but as far as I can tell this design is set up for modular signals, and running a guitar through it is going to require a preamp to get the signal to an adequate level. Otherwise you're going to get all kinds of extraneous noises.

What Stephen said about setting the trimpots. I also found very little change with either of the rate trimpots, and ended up leaving them in the center. I think the main thing you want to make sure of is that the low setting of the lfo isn't too fast for your needs. Mine gets really slow at the lowest setting (with the trimpot in the middle), but is still audible as moving, so I'm happy. The ClkTune trimpot is worth messing with - and might help alleviate the clicking - I found a setting at about 11 oclock that sounded pretty cool on mine - experiment with this one, it seems to make some big differences. I'm not really sure about the BBDbias trimpot - it also might have an effect on the clicking - I left mine in the middle, but am also noticing some weird maybe-bbd clipping with hot signals - I may experiment with this one some more.
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
Posts: 991
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Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sduck wrote:
Yes, I get quite a bit of popping with the S&H input, both with and without an input, but as that's kind of a special effects setting that one wouldn't normally use, it doesn't bother me. For 95% of the things I would do with this device I'll be using the ramp setting.

One thing I discovered is finding the real center of the sweep knob for testing - mine is at about 12:30 oclock - at that spot you get a real triangle wave and the cleanest modulation - this might help clean up your signal a little.

Sorry, didn't check the ext mod in.


Thanks again. Talked to Teknik and it sounds like he's having slight bleedthrough as well. Just got home and checked and for everything but the S+H, with a signal present, it's not too bad, especially as you say, in the usable settings of the rate, mix and LFO amount knobs. Need to test with a guitar again but more on that in a sec. So maybe this is a "feature" of the project and nothing wrong with mine specifically.

sduck wrote:
I'm sure you most likely know this, but as far as I can tell this design is set up for modular signals, and running a guitar through it is going to require a preamp to get the signal to an adequate level. Otherwise you're going to get all kinds of extraneous noises.


I'm not exactly sure about this. I know it can be built as a module, but I get the impression JH uses this with instrumental-level synths. Maybe a guitar is less than ideal and a DI box or pre-amp would help, but I don't think it's built for modular levels. I asked him about using a 10Vp-p sine for setting the BBD bias and he told me not to expect it to handle that at full level without clipping, so this gives me the impression it should be able to handle non-modular instrument levels better than a full-on hot modular level. For the record, though, unless I did something wrong, I was able to trim the BBD bias with a 10Vp-p sine wave with no clipping from the BBD line.

sduck wrote:
What Stephen said about setting the trimpots. I also found very little change with either of the rate trimpots, and ended up leaving them in the center. I think the main thing you want to make sure of is that the low setting of the lfo isn't too fast for your needs. Mine gets really slow at the lowest setting (with the trimpot in the middle), but is still audible as moving, so I'm happy. The ClkTune trimpot is worth messing with - and might help alleviate the clicking - I found a setting at about 11 oclock that sounded pretty cool on mine - experiment with this one, it seems to make some big differences. I'm not really sure about the BBDbias trimpot - it also might have an effect on the clicking - I left mine in the middle, but am also noticing some weird maybe-bbd clipping with hot signals - I may experiment with this one some more.


So you did find that the rate of the LFO changed with the ClkLow trimmer? I could only see & hear it effecting the level/voltage of the modulation signal/LFO - the rate stayed the same. Will be curious if JH chimes in at some point.

Do you guys notice much with the APF setting? I have the mix at 50/50 and don't hear much of a difference. I know you guys discussed some of the toggles not having much audible effect to your ears - maybe this was one of them - going to re-read now.

Thanks again. You guys have been incredibly helpful.
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sduck



Joined: Dec 16, 2007
Posts: 459
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Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be honest, I don't really remember what the clocklow trimmer did, if anything. All I know for sure is that I messed with it a bit, and then set it in the center.

The APF is an all pass filter - I'm not really sure what it's supposed to do. I have noticed that with most signals it doesn't really do much of anything, which if it's really an all pass filter would mean it's working correctly. I did notice that in the demo I made, the 2 times I flipped that switch it rolled off the low end just a bit. I suspect it's one of those things that's good to have for certain kinds of signals, but not needed for most of them.
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sduck wrote:
To be honest, I don't really remember what the clocklow trimmer did, if anything. All I know for sure is that I messed with it a bit, and then set it in the center.


Ah, good to know. Just wanted to make sure mine wasn't doing something wrong.

sduck wrote:

The APF is an all pass filter - I'm not really sure what it's supposed to do. I have noticed that with most signals it doesn't really do much of anything, which if it's really an all pass filter would mean it's working correctly. I did notice that in the demo I made, the 2 times I flipped that switch it rolled off the low end just a bit. I suspect it's one of those things that's good to have for certain kinds of signals, but not needed for most of them.


I think you're totally right. I just played my guitar through it a bit, which sounded fine at more moderate/usable settings. With the guitar I could hear the APF making more of a difference with the direct sound than it was with the synth patch I was using before.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

StephenGiles wrote:
Best to set up by ear, then it'll sound just as you want it to.


Right.
I never worked out any step-by-step adjustment procedure. I'm not even sure if I have the "best" setting on my personal unit. If it sounds good, it is set up right. - Numbertalk: If your signal doesn't fade with very high clock rates, so much the better: you have an excellent TDA chip. Be happy, and ignore what I wrote about that point then. You measure the clock frequency at the clock ins of the TDA chip.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A few photos.


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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks everyone. So I think I'm finally good. I'd be curious to know about the bleedthrough the 3 of us are having to varying degrees, but with an input signal and at settings that I'm partial to anyway so far under those conditions it doesn't seem to have an adverse effect.

By the way, this is worth a read:

http://jhaible.de/jh_storm_tide_flanger.html

I had read it originally when this project first got underway, but had forgotten a few things that have helped me to better understand some of the features. Apparently mixing in the APF signal really shines with the output in stereo. Also I had noticed that the bounce effect sounded weird with the LFO - looks as though it's more appropriate to use it with a single-shot type of modulation. He also talks about the expected signal level - sounds like a "hot" non-modular synth level is ideal, so with guitar would probably get better SNR by running it through a pre-amp before running it into the flanger.

One thing I'm noticing is that the envelope follower can sound distorted/weird (not in a good way necessarily) at times, even with the env amount only turned up slightly, depending on how I have the manual pot set. I don't think it's an error in my build, just something I noticed yesterday.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 2014
Location: Germany
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
so with guitar would probably get better SNR by running it through a pre-amp before running it into the flanger.


No need for a preamp - simply increase R66.
Input impedance my be a little low for guitar also (47kOhms).
You may want to run it after an other stomp box, i.e. not the as the first FX in the signal chain.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



Joined: May 05, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
so with guitar would probably get better SNR by running it through a pre-amp before running it into the flanger.


No need for a preamp - simply increase R66.
Input impedance my be a little low for guitar also (47kOhms).
You may want to run it after an other stomp box, i.e. not the as the first FX in the signal chain.

JH.


Thanks JH.
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sduck



Joined: Dec 16, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quick question - I'm putting together a second one of these for someone and want to make sure I get the wiring right. I was checking the wiring on the 1v/oct input and noticed something odd - the wiring may be reversed in the wiring diagram. I went to check that input on my previous version, and indeed can't get any kind of input to do anything. It looks like the wiring diagram indicates that the ground wire should connect to the input wire via the tracking pot, which doesn't make sense.

I also notice at least one other input wired this way, but it seems to work - at least I think so. The Mod In jack? Anyway, if anyone has any input on this I'd appreciate it.
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vtl5c3



Joined: Sep 08, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sduck, I don't follow you. Are you referring to the diagram here:

http://jhaible.de/sonofstormtide/sost_sch7.pdf
?

To me it looks correct. The tip of the input connector breaks the ground connection between the jack's tip and sleeve, which is then fed to the pot's input. The pot's middle and output pins are tied together and feed the attenuated voltage to the flanger's 1v/oct input.

sduck wrote:
Quick question - I'm putting together a second one of these for someone and want to make sure I get the wiring right. I was checking the wiring on the 1v/oct input and noticed something odd - the wiring may be reversed in the wiring diagram. I went to check that input on my previous version, and indeed can't get any kind of input to do anything. It looks like the wiring diagram indicates that the ground wire should connect to the input wire via the tracking pot, which doesn't make sense.

I also notice at least one other input wired this way, but it seems to work - at least I think so. The Mod In jack? Anyway, if anyone has any input on this I'd appreciate it.
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sduck



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, that much is right. But the problem is the little tab thing on the wiring diagram which indicates which wire is which to people like me who are doing these things visually. The problem is that if you follow the wiring diagram using the tab indicator as a guide, your 1v/oct input and your Mod input will be wired backwards. I should have caught this before - you can tell which pad connects to ground pretty easily visually on the pcb, but in the heat of being near the end of a lot of wiring I was just following the diagram religiously, which I now know is a mistake.

I just went and reversed the wiring on those 2 jacks, and voila! They work! I had never even checked the 1v/oct jack before this evening, and it didn't work at all, but now it works fine. And I thought the mod in jack was working - it seems to do something even wired backwards, but now that it's wired right, it does all sorts of cool things.

Oh - and numbertalk and TekniK, you should check this - this seems to have an effect on the clicking we've all noticed. I still get a bit of clicking on the s&h setting, but it's much less, and it's all but gone in the other settings.
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah... I gotcha. I hadn't even thought to look at the diagram that way. Embarassed

sduck wrote:
Yes, that much is right. But the problem is the little tab thing on the wiring diagram which indicates which wire is which to people like me who are doing these things visually. The problem is that if you follow the wiring diagram using the tab indicator as a guide, your 1v/oct input and your Mod input will be wired backwards. I should have caught this before - you can tell which pad connects to ground pretty easily visually on the pcb, but in the heat of being near the end of a lot of wiring I was just following the diagram religiously, which I now know is a mistake.

I just went and reversed the wiring on those 2 jacks, and voila! They work! I had never even checked the 1v/oct jack before this evening, and it didn't work at all, but now it works fine. And I thought the mod in jack was working - it seems to do something even wired backwards, but now that it's wired right, it does all sorts of cool things.

Oh - and numbertalk and TekniK, you should check this - this seems to have an effect on the clicking we've all noticed. I still get a bit of clicking on the s&h setting, but it's much less, and it's all but gone in the other settings.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good catch. Unfortunately I believe I did this right - I always check when wiring up to diagrams like this and I believe found which pin was ground. I'll double-check, but unfortunately shouldn't help alleviate my problem. I've been using my flanger quite a bit and it sounds great but S+H is still unusable and at extreme settings (which I really wouldn't use anyway) it's more prominent.

sduck wrote:
Yes, that much is right. But the problem is the little tab thing on the wiring diagram which indicates which wire is which to people like me who are doing these things visually. The problem is that if you follow the wiring diagram using the tab indicator as a guide, your 1v/oct input and your Mod input will be wired backwards. I should have caught this before - you can tell which pad connects to ground pretty easily visually on the pcb, but in the heat of being near the end of a lot of wiring I was just following the diagram religiously, which I now know is a mistake.

I just went and reversed the wiring on those 2 jacks, and voila! They work! I had never even checked the 1v/oct jack before this evening, and it didn't work at all, but now it works fine. And I thought the mod in jack was working - it seems to do something even wired backwards, but now that it's wired right, it does all sorts of cool things.

Oh - and numbertalk and TekniK, you should check this - this seems to have an effect on the clicking we've all noticed. I still get a bit of clicking on the s&h setting, but it's much less, and it's all but gone in the other settings.
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the 4012 & 4049 ... UB types necessary?
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sduck



Joined: Dec 16, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I built one of these a few months ago, and I recently built another one for someone else, and took the opportunity to tweak the panel a little. I moved the pots around, so that the ones I was using the most were all at the top, and added the v/oct tracking knob I completely forgot on the first one.

Son of Storm Tide Flanger II front

Son of Storm Tide Flanger II back 1
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sduck



Joined: Dec 16, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tomcat wrote:
For the 4012 & 4049 ... UB types necessary?


Assuming you mean the 4013 - the part that's called for is CD4013B, I can't even find a UB version of this.

CD4049UB - in a quick search I couldn't find any non-UB versions.

The parts that worked for me were from mouser - part #595-CD4013BE and #595-CD4049UBE.
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I checked, i ordered B versions, not from mouser. Didnt receive them till now so maybe they are UB (reichelt).
Found also a supplier with UB versions for both chips where i have to order some other things in the next couple days. Thats why i ask.

Last edited by tomcat on Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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sduck



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Use sockets, so if they don't work you can easily replace them.
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rolling Eyes
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think you can hardly go wrong with these CMOS chips.
Unbuffered versions for "ordinary" functions are long obsolete, AFAIK.
Only pitfall to avoid is using any kind of 74... series high speed CMOS that cannot stand 15V supply.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, was just wondering because you normally dont use the extensions in your boms. And from the datasheet there is just one feature on the ub models which is different (hmm, was it prolongation time !?)

Danke Jürgen!
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zthee



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would it be useless to use 2 pots instead of a dual gang - on the input and mix pots?

Also, the BPol output isn't mentioned in the documents? (I think I've looked at everything at least twice..) Great place for a bipolar LED?

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