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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
"Son Of Storm Tide" Flanger
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interested?
yes
97%
 97%  [ 41 ]
no
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 42

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jumunius



Joined: Apr 19, 2010
Posts: 346
Location: San Francisco, CA
Audio files: 13

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tiego wrote:
it does work , from either point of D1; ( works the same from the amount pot mid point still I am looking for a point where to get the ENV signal after the release control stage but before the amount stage...
(meaning I can use the env full level externally without cranking the amount inside the SOST)

I don't think such a point exists. The Amount pot is practically where the signal enters the circuit.

Also, regarding "either side of D1", yes the signal will be mostly the same, but the diode is there for reverse voltage protection. I assume if you add an out and accidentally plug the wrong thing in there you could damage your envelope circuitry.

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tiego



Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 15
Location: France

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right
I think I did fuck up the env circuit ( worked on test then not when I patched it)
i ll check the soldering and all tomorow
rrrhaa
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jumunius



Joined: Apr 19, 2010
Posts: 346
Location: San Francisco, CA
Audio files: 13

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tiego wrote:
Right
I think I did fuck up the env circuit ( worked on test then not when I patched it)
i ll check the soldering and all tomorow
rrrhaa


Oh I hope not! I think it's more of a precaution than anything, especially when on a modular it's so easy to patch the wrong cable in.

But I guess there's only one way to find out.

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tiego



Joined: May 15, 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Took my wire away from D1 checked the soldering , seems ok.

the env follower doesnt work internally in the SOST no more.
dont even know where to start to debug , I guess that D1 Diode...
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: envelope follower Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know how many SOST have been built over the years. I just finished building one and I found that the ENV- follower was not working properly. It was more like a comparator with no threshold.
According to LTSpice changing R61 from 1K to 100K makes it much better. Will check that in the module soon.

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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I checked everything in real life now.

R61 must be changed from 1K to 100K to make the envelope follower work properly. With 1K it works more or less like a comparator, holding the inverting input of the OpAmp at almost 0V.

Accordingly one has to change R5 from 470K to 100K to have a decent impact onthe modulation.

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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SOST and just the internal envelope follower. sound source is a gated square wave:


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Rvlt



Joined: Mar 05, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Matthias,

do you run your SOST on 12V or 15V? I built the SOST for my 5U / 15V system, and I always thought the ENV works fine, but I will check again. Maybe you could run Spice sim. with 15V as well?

Cheers
Lars
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rvlt wrote:
Hey Matthias,

do you run your SOST on 12V or 15V? I built the SOST for my 5U / 15V system, and I always thought the ENV works fine, but I will check again. Maybe you could run Spice sim. with 15V as well?

Cheers
Lars

I run on 12V, but that does actually not make any difference.

With just 1K to GND on the inverting input the opamp works as a comparator. the result is a kind of sloped gate, which of course has an effect in the end. but it is not an envelope follower and it will shoot as soon as you turn the ENV knob away from CCW.
This is also what I got from this single and only useful demo on youtube, where a guitar player demoes it. And he states almost exactly that.

This or I got something terribly wrong in general, which I do not believe at this point.

BTW you could compare the envelope follower in the SOST with the envelope follower in the MS20 and you will quickly spot it.

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Rvlt



Joined: Mar 05, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alright,

I will try changing the resistors tomorrow and make a before/after comparison.

So theoretically ...if I put e.g. a sequencer line into the SOST and vary the input level, the flanging sweep then should also vary a lot more than before. With the old resitor values it stays more or less static. Is that correct?

(too bad I have my MS20 in the studio and not near the modular/workbench..)
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

theoretically yes. however, the settings are a little bit fiddly and as you can hear in my video above, the effect is more noticable with slow changes.
with the old values i actually had the input audio modulating the flanger since the comparator switched at every zero crossing (at audio rate!).

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Rvlt



Joined: Mar 05, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I changed both R61 and R5 and now the ENV Mod potentiometer is way more useful than before. It now feels like a modulation amount knob like it should be, before it was kind of the same sound over the whole knob range.

And you're also right: it is a bit more fiddly to use envelope modulation on the SOST (or any flanger?) than on some filter. Doesn't sound "right" on every signal.
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Boerge



Joined: Sep 02, 2009
Posts: 75
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just compared the schematics of SoST-Flanger with the original StormTideFlanger - Jürgen used the same Envelopefollower back then. So he made the same mistake twice?
Made a short simulation too. I'm not shure, if I coult trust LTSpice, as it says 140Volts on output, by +/-15V as power supply...


env-follower.png
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Scematic of my simulation, with the corrected resistor
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env-follower.png



env-fol-sim.png
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Sim of the original schematic
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env-fol-sim.png



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Boerge



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooops... missed a dot in the values for V3. 5Volts input is a bit too much Wink But with 0.5V input LTSpice runs still to 24V output...
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It obviously is a mistake. The R61 (R2 in your simulation) has to be in the 100K ballpark, not just 1K.
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matthias
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