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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Nord Lead and Nord Wave synths
Different behaviour between the NL/NR versions
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phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WOW! that's great Wout good job. 15 years hey Razz

Now just to be ultra anal Wink if we take the topic of the thread
"Different behaviour between the NL/NR versions"
instead of "testing the nord's extreme"

@ this point, the appropriate question would be....
Does this bug happen on each nord version ??

Just I'd ask Smile

Again congrats on your discovery and thanks

phiol
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Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phiol wrote:
... @ this point, the appropriate question would be....
Does this bug happen on each nord version ?? Just I'd ask Smile
Well, being an Omega tester Wink I ask for your help. At http://electro-music.com/forum/post-246129.html#246129 there is a discussion about 'the Midi and leftmost Slot problem' mentioned in the Manual, to be found at 'Using the NordLead with a sequencer, which is rather confusing.

Do you still have the NordRack2X and surely the NordRack2? You need only both synths, a Midi controller keyboard and one Midi cable to check out how other Slots react to the leftmost Slot's Midi channel. It takes about 15 minutes to do it all the way.

Wout
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phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
Posts: 58
Location: montreal
Audio files: 9

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a second.

Just to be extra clear, by sending me to the other thread we are addressing 2 different problems to be tested

1. the irregularity of an arp. depending on the slot it is going out from and

2. the multiple slot only works if a)on the same ch. and b) the left most slot activated is == ch 1. Since this what a keyboard controller sends to .

Mmmm. your suggesting there 's a link between topic 1.&2..

interesting. I have tested and have a work around in MaxMsp for topic 2.

I am not sure I know how to test topic 1 on my nord 2x. Help to help out;-)

phiol
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phiol



Joined: Mar 26, 2009
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Location: montreal
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi wout

I think I might possible have a lead on your rack lead arp glitch.
I think it has something to do w. shift/outmode<- slotB.
When you select 3. Ab you get that auto panning effect in the Perc sounds.

Hope this helps??

phiol
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ricard



Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Lund, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been intrigued by reports on the internet in various forums about differences in the sound between especially the Nordlead2 and the original Nordlead. I've myself owned a '2 almost since they were new, but the '1 (as I'll call it here, even though it doesn't actually have that number) I haven't come across very often. I remember being very impressed by it (blown away is more like it) when I first tested it when it came out, but felt it was rather expensive for what it was. When Clavia launched the '2 a year or two later it had keyboard split and a couple of other features missing from the '1, so I jumped on it almost immediately.

The other day I had the chance to borrow a '1, and I spent a few nights comparing the two. I've been trying to set up identical patches on both machines by creating a patch on the '1, writing it to a memory card, then calling it up on the '2. It seems to work. At least sometimes the filter tracking comes up wrong (when set to 0, it seems to come up as 1/3 on the '2), but that's easily correctable.

I also compared the preset patches (#40..#99) between the two, as they also seem identical. Again, they have tweaked the filter kbd tracking on the presets in the '2, and also the use of unison, but that is easy to correct. I didn't check every patch in detail, just a quick run through to see what might be different.

Anyway, as far as I could tell, they sounded virtually identical. One patch though, #87 was different. There was an extra noise in the sound on the '2.

Upon careful examination this turned out to be a bug in the '1, either in the patch itself (i.e. the parameter values;I haven't checked what the actual values are), or in the way the synth interprets them. You see, after some experimentation, I came to the conclusion that the osc 2 frequency was set 7 semitones higher than is possible using the knob! Setting the osc 2 frequency to the maximum achievable by the knob made the '1 sound the same as the '2.

I don't know if there are more patches with parameters like this.

Another thing I noticed is that many bass sounds sounded different. They would sound the same in higher registers but different in the lower registers. The '2 sounded more 'bassy', but the '1 had a 'clearer' sound. Especially at high volumes this seemed to be the case.

I wanted to document this so I made a recording of both synths. A riff is played first on the '1, then on the '2, alternately. First on its own in different octave ranges, then separate notes, then with some (simple) accompaniment (from other machines) in order to hear what it sounded like in a musical context.

The '1 and '2 still sounded different.

While editing the resulting .wav file of the recording before uploading, I suddenly noticed the image of sound had changed. Now the '1 sounded more bassy than the '2.

Analyzing the .wav file with Audacity it was revealed that the output from the two machines are phase inverted. On the '1, the sawtooth goes up. On the '2, the sawtooth goes down. It's not my mixer; it's the same when plugging in headphones directly into the synths.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen..

This is an extract from the recording. The NL1 is on the left, the NL2 on the right.

The whole file (31 megabytes in size; 3 minutes long) is available here for those who want to hear for themselves:

http://www.butoba.net/audio/nl2vsnl1bass.wav

I'm not sure exactly why this is, I would have thought phase inversion would not be audible, although apparently this is an issue with for instance bass drums, which sound odd when phase inverted due to the fact that our ears react differently to a pressure increase than a pressure decrease in the air pressure.

I made a test by editing the .wav file and inverting the riffs produced by the '1. The two synths then sounded identical to me. So that seemed to be the only difference.

Anyway I'll leave it at that for you all. I'm wondering if this phase inversion accounts for much of the reports that the two machines sound different.

/Ricard
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interresting!

Will try out later Smile

Wout
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dorremifasol



Joined: Sep 28, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting indeed.

Some time ago I noticed something similar with the G2. I suppose it's due to the same psychoacoustic effect:

http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-40649.html

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Albert
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Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dorremifasol wrote:
... http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-40649.html
Didn't read this thread before, but there is a smile on my face reading Roland's theory about the violin... Strings are always a mess, that teir quality in music Very Happy
The reason for bowing the same direction has to do with sustaining notes, because when bowing downwards is easier to play the following upward stroke without a small stop then the other way around. The reason for that are the muscles in the human arm.
Bowed strings are always out of fase...
Vibrato makes it worst.

Wout
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ricard



Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Lund, Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here at work with a pair of open earphones (Koss Porta Pro), I can hardly hear the difference. At home I've been listening with a pair of closed 'phones, and then it is more obvious. Haven't tried speakers yet (don't want to wake the rest of the faimly up at half past eleven at night).

/Ricard
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ricard wrote:
... You see, after some experimentation, I came to the conclusion that the osc 2 frequency was set 7 semitones higher than is possible using the knob! Setting the osc 2 frequency to the maximum achievable by the knob made the '1 sound the same as the '2. ...
This sounds reasonable Smile The knob has a range of 0 to 120, where the parameter has a range of 0 to 127...

See [Manual 2X page 111, fist line of the Patch Bulk Format]

The SysEx is able to give 127...

Wout
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ricard



Joined: Jan 05, 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Lund, Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Wout for checking that out... I was too lazy...

I wonder then how and why they got that parameter value in there. It would seem unlikely that they have programmed the presets on anything else than the machine itself. And and at any rate it's rather sneaky to put a parameter value there that an ordinary user can't reach.

Or maybe it's just another form of easter egg from Clavia. It's not the first in those machines...

/Ricard
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So far at the moment:
I tried some different values changed in the SysEx string to see the possibilities to reach different settings. The Osc2 SemiTones can be set to 127, although the knob only reaches 120... Higher values create random settings, even negative ones.

I didn't upload into the synth yet...
I am careful!

Wout
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