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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Can an oscillator start at the same point every note on?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G2Psy wrote:
It is not normal or expected to get a pulse or click when a fast envelope modulates a filter or amp.


Dunno, it seems physically correct to me and the only way to get it out on the system level would be to make it artificially slow ... don't think I'd want that ... transients should click. But yes it can be tricky to get it out at times.

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G2Psy



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Actually it isn't the envelope!

I just disconnected the envelope from the filter and turned the filter mod amount down to zero. It STILL has random clicks at the start. The filter is around 400Hz low pass cutoff and not being modulated at all. This is more likely to be some artefact from the delay necessary for the filtering algorithm. I'm guessing that all digital filters must start with delaying the signal in some way...

Just shows, you have to keep looking even if you think you have the answer.

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G2Psy wrote:
As OP of this thread (although it is basically the same issue as xav's thread) I can't help but think that the G2 architecture simply fails with envelopes and control signals. It is not normal or expected to get a pulse or click when a fast envelope modulates a filter or amp. Its just wrong. Sure you can find a work around, but you really shouldn't have to. The only good side to this issue is that many digital synths have this flaw. But the good ones (Virus TI for example) never do this.

Very many analogue synth envelopes also produce clicks. It's not a quality issue nor a purely digital phenomenon at all, but simply a design feature.

Quote:
I'm guessing that all digital filters must start with delaying the signal in some way...

Yes. Every digital filter needs some samples of overhead to calculate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tim wrote:

Yes. Every digital filter needs some samples of overhead to calculate.


Odd that the position of the Envelope would affect this behaviour though.

@G2PSY,

In my experience all good envelopes can produce a click by simple being so fast, my Yamaha CS15 is not one of them but my pulse certainly is. A Click or Snap in an envelope is very dersairable when synthesising percussive sounds.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're right, the click is good if you want it for your patch. But in fact I was on the wrong track blaming the envelopes because removing the filter envelope doesn't change anything. The fast envelope attack for the amp doesn't introduce any click of its own so I now realise there is nothing wrong with the envelopes at all. Amusing that we are debating the merits of something which the G2 doesn't even do Very Happy

It was just a simple bass patch and look at the trouble it has caused. This is a great group, thanks everyone.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Odd that the position of the Envelope would affect this behaviour though.


The filter introduces phase shifts across the frequencies (I'm not filter-savvy, but I think it could be something like this) that you can't control, meaning that you don't know where the phase is in the filter when you trigger the gate. I don't think you can be sure that the phase shifts are in sync with the frequency of the source oscillator, so the phase difference will not be the same even if you trigger the gate in sync with the oscillator. Therefore you can't know the voltage level on the output of the filter, and you'll get random clicks when you trigger a gate that is placed after the filter.

/Stefan

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yup, that's correct Stefan, and it should worsen at higher Q settings.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I get u or at least think.

So placing the envelope before the filter prevents the phasing of the filter from having any affect. Brilliant. Smile

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G2Psy wrote:
Amusing that we are debating the merits of something which the G2 doesn't even do Very Happy


Laughing beer

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purusha



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now if someone can tell me how to remove the the click on my Moog Voyager too...

Wink

I usually just sample and edit the click away manually.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No chance Purusha, those analog circuits do whatever they want.

Sampling is the best of both worlds for analog individual bass notes. But don't forget to add -20dB of white noise so the purists can talk about the purity of analog Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

G2Psy wrote:
But don't forget to add -20dB of white noise so the purists can talk about the purity of analog Very Happy

Laughing beer

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