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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject:
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G2Psy wrote: | It is not normal or expected to get a pulse or click when a fast envelope modulates a filter or amp. |
Dunno, it seems physically correct to me and the only way to get it out on the system level would be to make it artificially slow ... don't think I'd want that ... transients should click. But yes it can be tricky to get it out at times. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:39 pm Post subject:
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Actually it isn't the envelope!
I just disconnected the envelope from the filter and turned the filter mod amount down to zero. It STILL has random clicks at the start. The filter is around 400Hz low pass cutoff and not being modulated at all. This is more likely to be some artefact from the delay necessary for the filtering algorithm. I'm guessing that all digital filters must start with delaying the signal in some way...
Just shows, you have to keep looking even if you think you have the answer.
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:19 am Post subject:
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G2Psy wrote: | As OP of this thread (although it is basically the same issue as xav's thread) I can't help but think that the G2 architecture simply fails with envelopes and control signals. It is not normal or expected to get a pulse or click when a fast envelope modulates a filter or amp. Its just wrong. Sure you can find a work around, but you really shouldn't have to. The only good side to this issue is that many digital synths have this flaw. But the good ones (Virus TI for example) never do this. |
Very many analogue synth envelopes also produce clicks. It's not a quality issue nor a purely digital phenomenon at all, but simply a design feature.
Quote: | I'm guessing that all digital filters must start with delaying the signal in some way... |
Yes. Every digital filter needs some samples of overhead to calculate. |
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1067 Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:09 am Post subject:
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tim wrote: |
Yes. Every digital filter needs some samples of overhead to calculate. |
Odd that the position of the Envelope would affect this behaviour though.
@G2PSY,
In my experience all good envelopes can produce a click by simple being so fast, my Yamaha CS15 is not one of them but my pulse certainly is. A Click or Snap in an envelope is very dersairable when synthesising percussive sounds. _________________ iP (Ross)
- http://ipassenger.bandcamp.com
- http://soundcloud.com/ipassenger |
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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G2 patch files: 2
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:13 am Post subject:
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You're right, the click is good if you want it for your patch. But in fact I was on the wrong track blaming the envelopes because removing the filter envelope doesn't change anything. The fast envelope attack for the amp doesn't introduce any click of its own so I now realise there is nothing wrong with the envelopes at all. Amusing that we are debating the merits of something which the G2 doesn't even do
It was just a simple bass patch and look at the trouble it has caused. This is a great group, thanks everyone.
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
Audio files: 371
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:19 am Post subject:
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iPassenger wrote: | Odd that the position of the Envelope would affect this behaviour though.
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The filter introduces phase shifts across the frequencies (I'm not filter-savvy, but I think it could be something like this) that you can't control, meaning that you don't know where the phase is in the filter when you trigger the gate. I don't think you can be sure that the phase shifts are in sync with the frequency of the source oscillator, so the phase difference will not be the same even if you trigger the gate in sync with the oscillator. Therefore you can't know the voltage level on the output of the filter, and you'll get random clicks when you trigger a gate that is placed after the filter.
/Stefan _________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24075 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 277
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:22 am Post subject:
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Yup, that's correct Stefan, and it should worsen at higher Q settings. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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iPassenger
Joined: Jan 27, 2007 Posts: 1067 Location: Sheffield, UK
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 78
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:52 am Post subject:
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G2Psy wrote: | Amusing that we are debating the merits of something which the G2 doesn't even do |
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purusha
Joined: Mar 13, 2008 Posts: 131 Location: Ilkley
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:48 am Post subject:
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Now if someone can tell me how to remove the the click on my Moog Voyager too...
I usually just sample and edit the click away manually. _________________ OVNI Soundcloud Purusha Soundcloud |
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G2Psy
Joined: Feb 06, 2009 Posts: 60 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:54 am Post subject:
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No chance Purusha, those analog circuits do whatever they want.
Sampling is the best of both worlds for analog individual bass notes. But don't forget to add -20dB of white noise so the purists can talk about the purity of analog |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:53 am Post subject:
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G2Psy wrote: | But don't forget to add -20dB of white noise so the purists can talk about the purity of analog |
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