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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » The layout factory
Help with stripboard layout...
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LektroiD



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
LektroiD wrote:
I'm due a component delivery tomorrow, so I'll finish building mine then and let you know how I get on. Did you use a 914A, or a 4148 for your trigger circuit?

I'd be interested to know what bends you've found too!



Changing the DECAY pot to a 1M seems to hold the decay forever when fully dialed. I've probed around the circuit a bit with a piece of wire without any detrimental results... I hope! I put another pot (500K) between the left leg of R18 and the right leg of R23 and by turning it, it makes the kick drum sound like toms.

Still no luck at all with the triggering though! I have found a few ways of getting a sound out of it. One is to connect the ACCENT to (+), then take a wire from (+) and probe around the circuit a bit until it fires! Try (+) to pin 3 of the IC... or (+) to pin 5 for a kind of kick which rings out in various lengths.... or (+) to pin 6 for a real wobbly decay. Not for the purists I admit, but for those desperado's out there (like myself), it's an option.

At the moment to trigger it repeatedly, I have a simple circuit breadboarded up next to the 808 kick breadboard. It consists of a 9V battery, two transistors (548 and 558), a resistor, a 500K pot and a cap... This produces a steady CLICK noise when put through an amp. I've tried to use this to trigger the kick the 'proper' way, but no joy. I'm triggering the kick (if you can call it that), by running the (-) output of this smaller board, to (+) on the kick. The (+) of the smaller board is working in various places on the 808 breadboard... (see above paragraph)

(+) to R10 or R11 has some strange results if I remember correctly. Tie the accent to (+) and run a wire from (+) touching various spots around the circuit and see what you come up with.

I tried the Forrest Mims PULSE GENERATOR in the Engineer's Mini-Notebook 555 Timer IC Circuits to trigger this too, but no luck....

Hope those diodes have arrived LektroiD! Let us know how you get on...
Otherwise we'll simply have to wait for the Stripboard Jedi, Krunkus to sort out his lab and save us...


Ok, I have had my deliveries and finished the circuit, and here is the result:

I can confirm the trigger does not fire this circuit. However the circuit does in fact work.

You can get around the trigger issue by firing from a different point (as you have already mentioned). I used the junction of R9 and the collector of T6 to trigger the circuit - which works, but I think I'm getting the trigger sound cutting into the audio. You can get interesting results by triggering at the R13/R22/C5/C6 junction (seems to double the pitch).

I have no idea how the Accent works, I tried connecting to earth, Trigger, etc, but to no avail, does it need voltage to work?

I'm yet to experiment more with this, and also see if I can work out why the trigger does not fire from the correct point. I'm also going to try some of your 'bends' - particularly the 1MΩ decay!

I'll report back with any advancement on the trigger issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi LectroiD!

Good to see I'm not the only one who has the TRIGGER problem, yet sad to hear you haven't had success...

Tried your suggestions on triggering... yep, they work on my breadboard version. I've been unable to get rid of the click too. I'm assuming you are trying to trigger manually too? Or are you using a sequencer? Is there a simple circuit with a pot on it to plug into the trigger input of almost anything to test devices?

Anyhow, thought I'd include a few words I got from Eric via email:

__________________________________

trigger is never connected to GND - nothing would happen.

ACC should be +15V (or +12, or +9, whatever) for starters.

AFAIK you can change the values of almost any passive component in this circuit and still get it to make sound.

try putting a 100k resistor from TRIG to GND. sometimes I am triggering this stuff from a trigger out that is capacitively coupled and I have to do that or else it triggers once then stops. thats because the TRIG input of my circuit goes straight to the anode of a diode. gotta have a return path to GND from the TRIG input. and sometimes a 100k resitor from TRIG to GND is necessary.

___________________________________


I tried this stuff but had no luck. Perhaps you or someone else out there might find this of use.... In the meantime I'm hoping that a solution will present itself sooner or later. I'm pretty inexperienced in these matters! Kind of enjoying the poking around in the dark though....
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The notes say that Accent needs to be held high by at least 2V or the trigger won't work. I'd try holding it at 6V and then try triggering as normal.
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LektroiD



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In that case, it might be worth working on a separate triggered Accent circuit for it, then it can be used with the rest of the drums as we get them built. I'm building a second 808 bass now (one with mods, the other straight)..

I guess if we have an accent module for this project, we could always stick a variable in between to attenuate the amount of accent for each drum.

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LektroiD



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
Changing the DECAY pot to a 1M seems to hold the decay forever when fully dialed.


This seems to make the decay appear to feed back, and starts pitching upwards by a semitone when fully dialled on mine. I think it is possible to reduce the resistance by putting another resistor either in series of parallel (I can't remember which way around it is), but I should be able to level it out with a trimmer.. Or, I could just leave it as a 'feature'.

Quote:
I've probed around the circuit a bit with a piece of wire without any detrimental results... I hope! I put another pot (500K) between the left leg of R18 and the right leg of R23 and by turning it, it makes the kick drum sound like toms.


from which angle are you taking 'left & right'? Also are you referring to the schematic, the stripboard (which is laid out vertically) or the perfboard layout? I tried all combinations of this with a 470K resistor, but nothing happened.. Can you please indicate what else is in the junction of 'left' and 'right' legs?

I don't think I'll build another one just yet, I'll wait until the triggering problems have been ironed out of this, which will hopefully get rid of the audible 'trigger' click..

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LektroiD wrote:
-minus- wrote:
Changing the DECAY pot to a 1M seems to hold the decay forever when fully dialed.


This seems to make the decay appear to feed back, and starts pitching upwards by a semitone when fully dialled on mine. I think it is possible to reduce the resistance by putting another resistor either in series of parallel (I can't remember which way around it is), but I should be able to level it out with a trimmer.. Or, I could just leave it as a 'feature'.

Quote:
I've probed around the circuit a bit with a piece of wire without any detrimental results... I hope! I put another pot (500K) between the left leg of R18 and the right leg of R23 and by turning it, it makes the kick drum sound like toms.


from which angle are you taking 'left & right'? Also are you referring to the schematic, the stripboard (which is laid out vertically) or the perfboard layout? I tried all combinations of this with a 470K resistor, but nothing happened.. Can you please indicate what else is in the junction of 'left' and 'right' legs?

I don't think I'll build another one just yet, I'll wait until the triggering problems have been ironed out of this, which will hopefully get rid of the audible 'trigger' click..


My 1M pot seems to go a bit wild too... I guess fully dialed was a bit of an overstatement. There's a point where it extends the decay a lot though.

Ok... the mysterious tom pot. I've just switched on this breadboard version... Looking at the perf board layout, it's from the link between pin 5 of the IC (TL072) and the 22K resistor (R18).... and the link between the 470K resistor (R23) and C6. This is where I'm putting the 500K B pot. (the neck bone is connected to the back bone...etc)

I'm triggering manually with one of the methods described earlier. Not that this would matter I guess.

To be honest, I really don't know what I'm doing! You are probably much more experienced in these matters than myself...

Anyway, hopefully someone else can work out a click-less triggering method! I'm really unsure what Krunkus meant by: The notes say that Accent needs to be held high by at least 2V or the trigger won't work. I'd try holding it at 6V and then try triggering as normal.

I mean, as one can clearly see, I don't even know how to post quotes on a forum correctly, let alone work out what anyone is talking about here most of the time! Don't even know what day it is....
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the interests of science I simulated the circuit in LTSpice and it works fine.
It will trigger if it's fed a square rising edged signal of at least about 5 volts into the "trigger" input, this can be either a gate signal or a trigger signal.
So in theory virtually any square wave from an LFO or sequencer should trigger it.
Like Uncle K mentioned the "accent" input needs to be connected to at least 2 volts, otherwise you get no output, higher voltages give higher volume. For testing I would just hook the "accent" input up to the positive supply (+15 volts or whatever).
If I get chance I'll breadboard it and see if I can get it working, like the simulation.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:

To be honest, I really don't know what I'm doing! You are probably much more experienced in these matters than myself...

I mean, as one can clearly see, I don't even know how to post quotes on a forum correctly, let alone work out what anyone is talking about here most of the time! Don't even know what day it is....
hanged


Take it from my experience -minus-, being able to admit when you don't know what's going on is the first step to learning,........ heaps!
It's definitely something to be proud of in my opinion. Lots of people make out that they know exactly what's what when they don't. Where does it get them? Nowhere. They just look smart and stay ignorant. Rolling Eyes
I'd say you're well under way to becoming a good technician/engineer. I don't know how long it will take though. I've been playing around with this sort of stuff for 25+ years, and I've still got heaps to learn! Laughing

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LTSpice? I had never heard of that until now. My son recently said how great it would be if there was software you could test a circuit with prior to building it. Looks like it's already been done. Interesting that it should work in theory... Hoping you get the chance to breadboard it Slacker, and posting your results!

25+ years eh Krunkus? That is a long time! I guess I've been doing the visual art thing for that long... At first I used to copy illustrations from 2000AD comics. Took some years to be able to draw well. I've only been doing this soldering obsession for a year... I'm sure in time I'll understand this better and be able to create my own stuff! Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'll remove that noose from my neck now.... pale
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Been strip boarding this up for the last few hours and can report that this is CONFIRMED!!!

Yes, even that B@5+@rD TRIGGER actually works!!!!

I must have had something wrong somewhere on my bread board... To be honest, I wasn't expecting much to happen trigger-wise at all. I tied the accent to (+), and used a push 'on' switch from (+) to the TRIGGER diode and it fires! There still seems to be a slight click when you press the button, but no click when it is released. Someone with a sequencer might want to test this... perhaps the click would be eliminated?

I still think some of these other TRIGGER alternative points may be worth investigating. Some seem to give a beefier sound.

Anyway... it is CONFIRMED.... well, for me it is! Hearing is believing! All I have to do now is rewire my pots. I ALWAYS get them wrong!

Might post a list of trigger alternatives etc when I finish celebrating!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Glad to hear it's working and that the stripboard layout is OK.
I breadboarded it and it works fine for me as well, I've managed to fire it with the square wave output of an LFO as well as a trigger type signal.
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LektroiD



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Assuming I've read this right...

The trigger cable that plugs into this; Tip goes to trigger in on circuit, and the shield of the cable (ground) goes to the +15V rail?

The accent also shorts to +15V to activate?

Is the above correct? At the moment, I have the ground of the board connecting to the shield in the cable. I don't want to risk sending 15V back into my drum machine's trigger out if it might blow something inside it (or blow a fuse in my bench PSU).

Can someone draw out a basic wiring diagram, I'm having a heap of difficulty translating text into how it should be wired???

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shield goes to ground.
Tip goes to trigger in.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
Shield goes to ground.
Tip goes to trigger in.


that's what I have, nothing happens.. What is all the talk of (+) about? Do I need to short the accent to +15V to get the trigger to work? I'm using the same ground for the trigger as the audio out. Please excuse my ignorance here, but I'm trying to give as clear picture of what I have as possible.

I have another strange thing happening, I'm running the drum machine (which is also my trigger source) into channel 13 on my desk, and the 808 drum into channel 16, I can turn channel 13 down completely and still hear the drum machine through 16 it as clear as day. However, if I plug my headphones into the 808 out, I can only hear the 808??

I'm not sure if this is due to the alternative point I am triggering from being tied to the audio path somehow? I used the junction of R9 and the collector of T6 to trigger the circuit.

The audio signal is very low in comparison to the drum machine I'm triggering from, I'm assuming that is down to the trigger not being engaged?

I know I sound completely dumb, I should really draw what I have and scan it in, I'm much better with diagrams than text, I'll try to get that done later today, unless someone else beats me to it with the correct wiring diagram.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, you need to short the accent to +15V (or any voltage above say 3V) for the trigger to work.
I'm not sure what you mean about the mixing desk/drum machine/ch13/ch16 thing. Confused
There should be no way for the drum machine's audio out to get through the trigger into the same channel as the 808 voice. Are you sure you are using a proper trigger out? Not an audio out?
Man, I wish I had time to play around with this.
Do a stripboard layout even.
Still, it's okay, I s'pose. I'll get my life back when I'm dead! Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:

Man, I wish I had time to play around with this.
Do a stripboard layout even.

too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee too much coffee

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm managing to trigger my device manually with the accent tied to the (+). This is (+)9V in my case as I don't have a bipolar 15V supply and I'm using two 9V batteries to power it. (the only bipolar thing around here is me... and it doesn't fire that way either!)

Anyway, what I can't understand is this: Why is it that I can tie the accent to (+)9V and get it to trigger manually from the correct trigger point joined to the (+) with a push button switch in between....

BUT.....

I can't trigger it from the correct trigger point if I use a 4017 decade counter arrangement with the (+) output of one of the pins from the 4017 chip going to the trigger and the shield going to ground on the 808! ??? I can trigger it this way but only from the same places as with the push on switch...

Yes, all this (+) stuff is making me crazy too!

Eric sent me an email about triggering. Not sure if this may be of use to anyone... or just confuse the matter more:


hey here is an interesting tempo generator you could use with the 808 kick. its the same circuit from Andromeda Space Rockers. it has infrared networking too. (ghetto net). it says it needs 9V but you could use +12 or +15. the GND in this circuit goes to your 808kick's GND. the -15V from your 808kick does not connect to this circuit...

http://ericarcher.net/devices/ir-net/


PS: Thanks for the strip board slacker!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
BUT.....I can't trigger it from the correct trigger point if I use a 4017 decade counter arrangement with the (+) output of one of the pins from the 4017 chip going to the trigger and the shield going to ground on the 808! ??? I can trigger it this way but only from the same places as with the push on switch...


You may need to put a 100K pull down resistor from that 4017 output to ground. Also take the output to the 808 trigger input. Otherwise the 4017's output might float around when it should be 0V.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHhhhhhhhhhhh.......

Russian Roulette Ha Ha! Well, you see, it's like this: I made up this 555 timer 4017 decade counter thingy. It has 8 flashing led's on it. So I thought that I could somehow make this trigger the 808 kick by wiring from one led to the kick trigger. It works if i wire where my push button manual trigger is on the 808, but not if I wire it to the proper trigger point and to the ground on the 808...

Ok Krunkus... so am I wiring the pull down resistor (whatever that may be) from one of the output pins of the 4017 (whichever I choose to use as a test) to the ground of the 4017 device's power supply? Then take the output from the 4017 to the trigger input of the 808? That would be one wire, right? That doesn't seem right to me....

I'm going to experiment a bit more....
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Your 4017 thing should be able to trigger the TR808. As you've got LEDs and presumably current limiting resistors conencted to the outputs you don't have to worry about adding a pulldown resistor.
All you should need to do is connect one of the outputs of the 4017, to the trigger input of the TR808. Then connect the grounds of the 2 circuits together.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sad well no luck again....

This is where i am getting into the realm of sequencers... something i know little about. I just tried to use a 100K resistor from the particular output of the 4017 to the ground of the 4017 9V battery... and then tried the 100K resistor from the 4017 output to the ground of the 808. No luck in either instant. The only way this works is by wiring the (-) from the 4017/555 device to the (+) of the 808, and the pin out of the 4017 to the trigger of the 808... it works but has a click on firing.

I can see why LektroiD is having problems! More for me to learn obviously... Sadly I may have to concentrate on doing some 'paid' work in the 'real' world (whatever that is) over the next few days. Quite sad really... I just want to play with my soldering iron! Oh well....

If I lived in Nambucca Heads I'd be knocking on your door right now Krunkus with a bag full of wires etc.... Maybe we should pass around the plate to encourage you to strip board one of these?

...K..... R..... U..... N..... K..... U..... S
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

was busy typing out my sob story and hadn't noticed your reply slacker...

Well the Led's are not wired to the 4017 anymore. I'm taking a wire from a pin on the 4017 to the trigger on the 808. I have put a 100K resistor along the line there too... not sure if this is right. Got the ground of the 4017 device and the 808 linked... no luck!

This is where these little smiley icons i recently discovered come in very useful: behead
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
Yes, you need to short the accent to +15V (or any voltage above say 3V) for the trigger to work.
I'm not sure what you mean about the mixing desk/drum machine/ch13/ch16 thing. Confused


CH13/16 could be 1&2, just that 13/16 are the actual channels I was using, audio is cutting through, could just be my wiring...

As for the accent, What would be the ideal value fixed resistor to place in between the accent and +15V for optimal performance? Or maybe 2 resistors (for a low/high accent switch).

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
I have put a 100K resistor along the line there too... not sure if this is right.


Not "along the line" (series) but from that point to ground.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uncle Krunkus wrote:
-minus- wrote:
I have put a 100K resistor along the line there too... not sure if this is right.


Not "along the line" (series) but from that point to ground.


HA HA HA HA!!!! That has to be one of the best schematics ever!! Just woken up.... I shall try it out and report findings soon...

Just two questions:

My 4017 is on the right hand side, and the 808 is on the left. This won't blow anything up will it? Laughing

ALSO: Could you do a strip board diagram of this as I can't read schematics. Laughing
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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » The layout factory
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