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Atari punk console + Baby sequencer 4017 IC
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject:  can't get it to run.
Subject description: not even babysteps.
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hi everybody,
i've build the veroboardversion designed by minus, and it doesn't run.
all i get is a click-sound supposedly by the clock, which i can adjust by the 1M pot. i've put in the 1K resistor to keep it from cutting out.
also the pulse led is doing it's job and sometimes the 8th led is flashing, seemingly on the end of the cycle...
but there's no advancing of steps at all.

i've been using superbrite-leds and i'm running it from a regulated 9V powersource. so this doesn't seem to be the problem.

any ideas where the problem might be...i've been going over it now for several times and can't find the mistake...

any help much apprechiated...
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Sorry you are having problems. I guess we can assume the clock is working as you say the clock LED is blinking and the rate can be adjusted.

Firstly, is the 4017 getting power? Look at the top view diagram. Is the + voltage getting to PIN 16 and is the - voltage going to PIN 8?

PIN 3 of the clock 555 goes to PIN 14 of the 4017 (the clock input pin). Is that connection correct?

Check that all those jumpers are in place and in the right place.Hopefully you are only a simple mistake away from having this working.
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for your fast response.
-minus- wrote:

Firstly, is the 4017 getting power? Look at the top view diagram. Is the + voltage getting to PIN 16 and is the - voltage going to PIN 8?


that's correct. i've mesured it. all ics have powersupply.


-minus- wrote:

PIN 3 of the clock 555 goes to PIN 14 of the 4017 (the clock input pin). Is that connection correct?


that's correct, as well. i'measured this, too.

-minus- wrote:

Check that all those jumpers are in place and in the right place.Hopefully you are only a simple mistake away from having this working.


well, unfortunately. i've checked this several times now. jumpers and cuts are correct, or i'm really blind. i've also changed the ics, in case one was fried. is the 18k value for the step-leds from your veroboard design good for using the superbright leds. as far as i understood from reading through the posts, you've experimented to get the pot's full range to work...ughh, i don't know what to do anymore. any suggestions, to test the separate parts on it's own?

thanks .
grm.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The 18K resistors should be fine with superbrights.

I'm just thinking of all possibilities. Is PIN 13 of the 4017 tied to GROUND (-) ?

I would also be checking the stripboard cuts underneath to make sure they are cut cleanly and not touching where they should be cut.

Look at your soldering with a magnifying glass and make sure there are no solder bridges to adjoining rails. You could score between the rails with a knife just to be sure. Reheat any soldering which looks dull. Could be a cold solder joint somewhere.

The only thing which is linking the sequencer to the APC is the wire marked 'J' going via the DPDT switch. For the moment you could disconnect this and the sequencing part of the circuit should run independently. I think the problem is around your sequencer somewhere. Double/triple check the left side of the board.

Can you post photos of the top and bottom of the board? Maybe someone will spot the problem.
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
Is PIN 13 of the 4017 tied to GROUND (-) ?


it is.

-minus- wrote:

I would also be checking the stripboard cuts underneath to make sure they are cut cleanly and not touching where they should be cut.


done! seems to be good.

-minus- wrote:

Look at your soldering with a magnifying glass and make sure there are no solder bridges to adjoining rails. You could score between the rails with a knife just to be sure. Reheat any soldering which looks dull. Could be a cold solder joint somewhere.


done, as well. i've checked them for faulty connections and have been cutting along the gaps between the rails and cleand them from dust with a toothbrush...still only the 8th led blinks at the end of the cycle and i can hear a faint pop-sound.

-minus- wrote:

The only thing which is linking the sequencer to the APC is the wire marked 'J' going via the DPDT switch. For the moment you could disconnect this and the sequencing part of the circuit should run independently. I think the problem is around your sequencer somewhere. Double/triple check the left side of the board.


i've disconnected the APC part. still no results. i've been checking the connections and everything several times day after day, but still can't spot a mistake. if anyone has the time to take a look on the pictures of my circuit, they might be not "blinded by sight", like it might have happened to me in this case.

top:
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bottom:
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great photos! I've had a look over them and nothing is leaping out as being wrong. Confused

I'm trying to think logically about this. The clock appears to be counting. Clearly the 4017 is not counting, or if it is, only step 8 is lighting up. And you did say the IC has been replaced so we can rule out a faulty IC. What about the legs of the IC going into the socket? Nothing bent there I suppose...

Do you have voltmeter handy? Can you confirm that the clock pulse from PIN 3 of the 555 is reaching PIN 14 of the 4017? Measure at pin 14 and see. If you don't have a voltmeter you could test with a resistor and LED if you have a spare one. You could try reheating the solder on the legs of the 4017 socket. Perhaps it is something simple such as a cold solder joint.

I guess the pots for the 8 steps are wired correctly? I'm just wondering if something is shorting out somewhere. I feel there is something wrong around that 4017 somewhere but I'm not sure what it is. Rolling Eyes Not much help am I? Laughing

It would be a bit drastic but you could desolder the wires from the 8 steps, disconnect those pots and see if you can get 8 LEDs counting. The problem would then be something further along the circuit. I just can't think what it would be though.

Sorry for the rambling...

You need to be sure that clock is working. Tapping off PIN 3 of the clock to a speaker, you should hear clicking and the rate should increase with that 1M pot.

You need to be sure the ICs are getting power. Check with a multimeter or if you don't have one, use a LED and resistor.

Make sure the clock output of the 555 (PIN 3) is reaching the clock input of the 4017 (PIN14)

Make sure PIN 13 of the 4017, the ENABLE pin is connected to GROUND (-)

Measure the voltage from the 8 step output pins of the 4017.

Check that PIN 9 is connected to PIN 15 (RESET). It could be that it reaches step 8 and isn't resetting the count. Remelt the solder on these connections, in fact heat up all the solder of the 4017 socket pins.

I'd be checking the pot wiring. Is that correct? There is a bit of tricky switch and pot wiring which can get confusing. Maybe something connected to the outputs from the 4017 isn't right.

It certainly is strange.
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dear minus,
thanks for your kind attempts to help me with this problem. i really apprechiate it.

-minus- wrote:
Great photos! I've had a look over them and nothing is leaping out as being wrong. Confused


that's already something, as sometimes it can happen easyly, that you just don't see your own mistakes, which might be obvious to others.

-minus- wrote:

I'm trying to think logically about this. The clock appears to be counting. Clearly the 4017 is not counting, or if it is, only step 8 is lighting up. And you did say the IC has been replaced so we can rule out a faulty IC. What about the legs of the IC going into the socket? Nothing bent there I suppose...


i've checked them several times, no bend pins. now, i've measured the connections from the ic's pins to the stripboard and they are all ok. i think i would be spooky if both ics i've tried would be broken.

-minus- wrote:

Do you have voltmeter handy? Can you confirm that the clock pulse from PIN 3 of the 555 is reaching PIN 14 of the 4017? Measure at pin 14 and see.


this connection is ok. i've measured it.

-minus- wrote:

I guess the pots for the 8 steps are wired correctly? I'm just wondering if something is shorting out somewhere. I feel there is something wrong around that 4017 somewhere but I'm not sure what it is. Rolling Eyes Not much help am I? Laughing


no, you are helping me. because it is good to have some logic in trying to find the mistakes. and in fact, when i've been checking the output of the 8 steps by listening to the clicks, they worked. but then i've found a mistake, by measuring the connections to the pots, that would have been visible by just opening my eyes....some of the pots are wrong! Embarassed i thought they where all 100K, as i've bought them in the same pack, of mixed pots. by then i've sortet them, but unfortunately i hadn't realized that the 100 ones are not all 100K but some of them are 100R...this must be the fuck-up, and completely my own stupidness. Shocked

so i'll have to redo this part, which might take a while if i even have enough 100k pots ...

if i still can't get it to run, I'LL BE BACK.

thanks a million for your kind support.
salut
grm.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK very good. Your board does look fine to me so maybe the pots are the problem. 100 Ohm is very small. When you redo the pot wiring it might be worth just testing each of the 8 step outputs with a LED and resistor to ground, just to be sure they are blinking and thus working... then wire the pots when you are sure that 4017 is advancing through the steps correctly.

I make enough fuck ups myself! Laughing Usually what happens is, after troubleshooting for ages I collapse from lack of sleep... then I solder another board. Sometimes the troubleshooting gets to a point where it is quicker to just start again. Well, it is for me anyway.

Good luck!
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

alright,
it's running now!
the problem was my bad sight and the fact i saw only Ks where there were Rs too...now with all 100K pots it works.

but still i have questions:

the range of the single step pots is pretty small and also in some settings of the apc the running speed of the sequencer varies quite a lot, depending on what resistance the steps have, it "plays" them very short or has the tendency to be stuck there for longer...any suggestions what might be the problem? or is this normal with this kind of rather "simple" sequencer?

also my step amount selector (a rotary switch) that, shall have the effect of sending a reset signal from a choosen step to pin #15 doesn't work. the sequence only stops at the step for longer than normal and then continues after it in the same speed...my resetbutton (a momentary switch) connecting +9V with pin #15 works fine...might tis a problem of not enough "juice" coming from the 4017's pins? i quess if this is the case a transistor to switch on the +9V to pin #15 would be a solution, isn't it. any suggestions what kind of transistor this has to be?

so far many thanks to "minus" for his help...

grm.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm... not sure why the step select rotary switch isn't working for you. Do you mean that if for example you want to reset at step 4, the sequencer pauses for a bit at step 4, then continues on through step 5, 6, 7, 8? That shouldn't be happening. Have you connected it correctly? Like in this example:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-52774.html


I never got my APC sequencer into a case. I ended up scavenging the pots for something else, so I can't really test mine. The board is in a box somewhere. I could hook up some pots and do a test if need be. I don't recall the pots interfering with the running speed of the sequencer.

As for this reset problem again... if PIN 9 is connected directly to the reset, is the sequencer going through the 8 steps then looping to the beginning, or is it going through the full 10 steps the chip is capable of?

You could increase the resistors on the LEDs. I'm unsure how brightly they are burning. I have used 18K resistors on this Lunetta/logic synth I am making and haven't experienced problems like you are describing. Are you using a 9V battery or a power supply? I suggest checking the rotary switch is wired correctly and increase the resistor to maybe just one LED on a particular step, just for testing purposes. Then dial that step on your rotary switch and see if it works. Alternatively you could just disconnect the LED on that step and see if it has resolved the issue, then try a larger resistor to the LED until you find one which works.

I think you are almost there! Just a little fine tuning to do. Very Happy
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
Posts: 8
Location: 3linden

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
Hmmm... not sure why the step select rotary switch isn't working for you. Do you mean that if for example you want to reset at step 4, the sequencer pauses for a bit at step 4, then continues on through step 5, 6, 7, 8? That shouldn't be happening. Have you connected it correctly? Like in this example:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-52774.html


that's exactly what happens. it stops and then continoues as you've describes it. and at the end of the 8steps, when there is a reset signal from step9 theres a the led of the selected reset step blinks dimmly.

it is wired exactly like in the example.

-minus- wrote:

I don't recall the pots interfering with the running speed of the sequencer.


this could be fixed with a "reservoir" cap.

-minus- wrote:

As for this reset problem again... if PIN 9 is connected directly to the reset, is the sequencer going through the 8 steps then looping to the beginning, or is it going through the full 10 steps the chip is capable of?


pin9 is connected to the reset pin, and it works fine. reset after 8steps.

-minus- wrote:

You could increase the resistors on the LEDs. I'm unsure how brightly they are burning. I have used 18K resistors on this Lunetta/logic synth I am making and haven't experienced problems like you are describing. Are you using a 9V battery or a power supply? I suggest checking the rotary switch is wired correctly and increase the resistor to maybe just one LED on a particular step, just for testing purposes. Then dial that step on your rotary switch and see if it works. Alternatively you could just disconnect the LED on that step and see if it has resolved the issue, then try a larger resistor to the LED until you find one which works.


i'm running if of a 9v power supply. i've experimented with different resistors there, but the reset problem hasen't been soved by this. BUT, after i put back in the original 18k resistor, suddenly only on this step the pot works on it's whole range.....MAGIK!

i think i will use thicker cable for the rotary switch, now it's really thin compared to the solid reset wire on the stripboard (from pin9 to reset).
could be the resistance there?!?!

thanks again for your kind support.
grm.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm just looking at the diagrams I posted again. I notice there are no power decoupling capacitors there Embarassed . What you could try is soldering a 100nF capacitor as close to the + pin (PIN 16) of the 4017 and the GROUND rail. Next to that jumper going to PIN 16 will do. Also a large capacitor of say 100uF should go between the + and GROUND where the power enters the board. You should be able to squeeze one in there. Not sure if this will help but it is good electrical engineering to have them there... something I'm not all that good at! Laughing The caps act as reservoirs to be able to supply the circuit and IC's with power when the demand is there.

Another thought with the reset rotary switch... Have you eliminated the jumper from PIN 9 to PIN 15 when you hooked this up? I'm wondering if it is still there and causing issues because the IC would have two steps connected to RESET; the step you have selected with the rotary switch, PLUS the original RESET at the end of 8 steps. scratch If the jumper is still there- remove it.

If you still have no luck, I'll dig out my board and solder some pots to it and see if I can figure out what is going on.

There is something not right here...obviously! Laughing It depends how keen you are to persist with it. I'm not all that experienced myself. Four years ago I couldn't tell a transistor and a resistor apart. Sometimes you need to go to hell and back to get something working. It can be hard figuring out troublesome circuits. If you like detective novels- you'll love electronics!
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
I'm just looking at the diagrams I posted again. I notice there are no power decoupling capacitors there Embarassed . What you could try is soldering a 100nF capacitor as close to the + pin (PIN 16) of the 4017 and the GROUND rail. Next to that jumper going to PIN 16 will do. Also a large capacitor of say 100uF should go between the + and GROUND where the power enters the board. You should be able to squeeze one in there. Not sure if this will help but it is good electrical engineering to have them there... something I'm not all that good at! Laughing The caps act as reservoirs to be able to supply the circuit and IC's with power when the demand is there.

Another thought with the reset rotary switch... Have you eliminated the jumper from PIN 9 to PIN 15 when you hooked this up? I'm wondering if it is still there and causing issues because the IC would have two steps connected to RESET; the step you have selected with the rotary switch, PLUS the original RESET at the end of 8 steps. scratch If the jumper is still there- remove it.

If you still have no luck, I'll dig out my board and solder some pots to it and see if I can figure out what is going on.

There is something not right here...obviously! Laughing It depends how keen you are to persist with it. I'm not all that experienced myself. Four years ago I couldn't tell a transistor and a resistor apart. Sometimes you need to go to hell and back to get something working. It can be hard figuring out troublesome circuits. If you like detective novels- you'll love electronics!


hey,
i've just figured it out. but you've found the same thing without even seeing the mess i've made...

IT WAS THE JUMPER FROM STEP 9 TO RESET, THAT WAS CAUSING THE TROUBLE WITH THE ROTARY SWITCH!

i've took it out and it works just like it should. MY FAULT again, of course.
so no need to exhume your board, to help, but thanks.

the potrange issue, i've soved as well, by sloppy soldering, when i was testing different resistors. then the only fully working pot had no connection to lug 3 of the pot, i've cut all other connections from the (looking from above left lug) pots and they all work full range...

i dunno if you've solved this problem during the discussions here, so i'm just mentioning it....maybe there are moreways to get the wished results....

all your support and the vero layouts are much apprechiated here.

this morning i was playing around with the cacophonator, build from your layouts, with some mods....thanks you for this as well.


grm.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

party! Excellent news! I'm really happy you have it working.

So I suppose you still have the LEDs hooked up to the dark blue wire marked 'a' on the diagram, but not the left pot leg (looking from above)? That was tied to GROUND too in the original design. Yes that makes sense what you are saying. You could solder a small piece of resistor leg wire between the middle leg of the pot and the left leg. I have seen this done in other schematics. The pot is wired as a variable resistor. It might have something to do with having resistance there even if the pot wiper momentarily loses contact with the resistive disc inside the pot. I'm sure this discovery will help others at a later date. Something to play around with anyway.

You could try Uncle Krunkus' stripboard WSG if you are looking for something else to build. It was the first thing I built. It isn't too difficult and the layout definitely works.

Happy noise making!
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grm



Joined: May 13, 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, the resistors from the leds are now only conected to "a". haven't put in a resistor between the left and the middle leg, but i'm very pleased with the result still. as i mentioned there's now the whole potrange "filled with sounds", not as befor only in a small, hard to adjust section of the pots travel.

i hve the WSG on my schedule...but i think first i'll continue with a more electromechanical device, i've started already...this needs quite some finetuning, too. (http://9err1t-9r1mm-kr0e9er.tumblr.com/post/46681267604/totstellen-kaltland-2013)

cheers.
grm.
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tegleg



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello, dont know if anyone is still around for this.

ive actually built 2 of these running off the same clock, and this is where im stuck.
the 2 seem to interfere with each other, so instead of getting a note from each one, the second one kind of modulates the first.
thats great but not what i want.

how would you seperate the 2 oscillators sounds?

i tried making a simple op amp mixer but that doesnt make any difference.
its basically the same as the schematic, but with a duplicate of the 4017 and the 2 555's that make the oscillator, also i added the recommended buffer caps.

thanks for any help
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