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Atari punk console + Baby sequencer 4017 IC
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airfrankenstein



Joined: Jan 10, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: france

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Buffer's probably there to reduce noise...from the clock maybe ?

Sorry all I was supposed to post gut shots of my build which is hideously ugly and got uglier and uglier as I searched for a problem with the sound...after 2 weeks of compulsive late night fiddling I finally realized it was my 555's which were not fully functional...so thoses posts will come soon.

One question regarding the speed ? Are the other builders getting good speed range ? mine is limited from fast to really fast! I've added about 3megs of resistors between the clock out and the speed pot to slow it down... is that kosher or will it eventually kill something in the circuit ?
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A I R F R A N K E N S T E I N ! ! !

I'm mucking around with another sequencer. Using this as a basis, I've managed to make one which is capable of triggering other devices whereby consecutive steps are registering fine. The problem with the 4017 as is, is that consecutive steps join as one big step. My new sequencer was a little slow. I decreased the 100K resistor on pin 6 and 7 of the 555 clock to 10K and it is much faster.

In answer to your question above, I would be INCREASING the value of this resistor if you want to slow it down a bit. Are you sure you have the right value in here to begin with? 100K? That's BROWN BLACK YELLOW, right? All these colours are so confusing....

Hope this helps solve your problem.
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airfrankenstein



Joined: Jan 10, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: france

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you're right minus I should double check...back shortly
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anditsfake



Joined: Mar 13, 2010
Posts: 3
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:46 pm    Post subject: apc + 4017
Subject description: no dpdt switch or photo resistor
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Ok, so i'm trying to get rid of the dpdt switch. I don't want the opto or even to use the apc by itself. I'm only interested in feeding the sound of the apc circuit into the sequencer. I think I can pull this off by directly connecting pin 4 of the second 555 to the diode that would normally be attached to the midleft terminal of the switch (see image http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/monstruarte/atari_punk_console4th.png), or d to j as per the beautiful color diagrams on this page (http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-37770-25.html) Is this alright?
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rt87x



Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 4
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: how to sync baby sequencer to a drum click(shmitt trigger??? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi There, I have just finished a baby sequencer and was wondering how could i make it step forward by sending a click or kick drum track. i've heard that a shmitt trigger can be used here i just don't know how to go about it.

help here would be much appriciated.
thanx.
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airfrankenstein



Joined: Jan 10, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: france

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

do you mean you want to make it step manually ?
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airfrankenstein



Joined: Jan 10, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: france

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: apc + 4017
Subject description: no dpdt switch or photo resistor
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anditsfake wrote:
Ok, so i'm trying to get rid of the dpdt switch. I don't want the opto or even to use the apc by itself. I'm only interested in feeding the sound of the apc circuit into the sequencer. I think I can pull this off by directly connecting pin 4 of the second 555 to the diode that would normally be attached to the midleft terminal of the switch (see image http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz260/monstruarte/atari_punk_console4th.png), or d to j as per the beautiful color diagrams on this page (http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-37770-25.html) Is this alright?



double check (in other words don't trust me entirely) but i think you run the green wire coming off the last diode to pin 7 right after the resistor.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anditsfake: The DPDT switch just switches the function of the 8 step pots. In one position, the 8 X 100K step pots are the controls for the astable oscillator, and the 500K adjusts the stable oscillator of the APC. Switching the DPDT changes this. The 100K pots will control the stable oscillator, and the 500K will control the astable part.

The APC on its own has two pots. One gives it that sliding tone, the other the stepped notes. Eliminating the switch reduces the ability of what this device can do. I have found in one mode, the device gives more musical tones, and throwing the switch makes it more 'clicky' or rhythmic like.

I never bothered with the LDR section on the one I built. Instead I have simply eliminated the SP switch and LDR (APC + 4017 Sequencer LEVEL 4 vero.jpg). The 500K pot is still there along the line but the switch and LDR are not. In other words, the red wire 'D' is connected to the orange wire going to the middle leg of the 500K pot.

If you want to get rid of the DPDT switch, you need to work out what part of the APC you want to have sequenced with the 8 X 100K step pots. It's the pin 7's on each of the two APC 555's which you are dealing with. You could try wiring the middle leg of the 500K pot to pin 8 (point D) of the lower APC 555 (osc B)... The pot then gets wired to either pin 7 of osc A or pin 7 of osc B. Whichever you choose (osc A or B), the green wire (J) would go to pin 7 of the remaining oscillator.

This sounds really confusing! I think I have even confused myself!! Let us know how this goes. If all else fails I can cut some wires on mine and do some testing of this.
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rt87x



Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 4
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: baby sequencer external audio clock Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi there ,thanx for the reply.
what i would like is for ex:

let's say i take a click track (a click or kick drum etc..)from a separate output of
my computer sequencer software and some how connect that to to the baby sequencer so i can press play on my computer software and have the baby seq run in sync or forward the step acordingly to were i put my (click or kick drum on the computer software.
i know it is possible thru a (shmitt trigger or some sort of circuit )into 555timer or to pin 14 of the 4017,just not shore how to go about it.
many thanx
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

Audio files: 13

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok... Pin 14 of the 4017 is the clock pin. If you are using a 555 to step advance the 4017, then I guess pin 3 of the 555 is going to pin 14. I assume you want to use an external clock to make the 4017 advance through the steps? You probably need to disconnect the baby 10 clock if it has one. Try taking the output of your device you are triggering it with to pin 14. Im unsure what voltage requirements the 4017 has in terms of clock pulses. It just needs a square pulse i think...

I'll try to find out and get back to you....
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rosch



Joined: Oct 03, 2009
Posts: 164
Location: germany

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi there! i've just read through the thread, very interesting... so your switch determins which part of the APC is driven by the sequencer? wouldn't it be easy to drive both parts by two identical sequencers?? i'll have a look at fonik's design to see how he did it (two cvs).

btw if you like to generate trigger pulses from the sequencer i think it would be best to buffer the clock signal for that purpose, so you would have gaps between the steps (and could also switch off single steps).

but i'm also a beginner in this field and trying to understand these things too...
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rt87x



Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 4
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: baby 10 ext sync Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanx guy's, i'm going to also try what your' saying sending a percussive audio signal to pin 14 see if it works
i'll letu know how it went

thanx, rt87x
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-minus-



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Rosch!

I have been breadboarding another 4017 sequencer. I want to use this to trigger drum modules etc. To do this I am using a 4011 NAND IC, configuring it to be an AND. I am feeding the 555 clock pulse and steps from the 4017 into the AND. This way it triggers a pulse on each step only when a particular 4017 step is on AND the clock sends a pulse. I have also inverted the clock pulse to make it shorter using the 4011 to do this. It is working well!

I think I might add an external clock input to the APC SEQUENCER so I can clock it with this new trigger sequencer I am working on. Got a few more experiments to do yet. Want to extend it to 16 steps with a second 4017.

We all seem to be beginners here! Welcome to what may end up to be the largest thread on this forum! Wink

Im finding the chat room is a great way to meet others and gain useful information.

Cheers,
Steve

PS. I like your idea of controlling both APC parameters with a second 4017! Good idea!
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rt87x



Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 4
Location: uk

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:43 pm    Post subject: external sync for baby sequencer Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi there guys,well i tried to connect a drum machine kick drum output to pin 14 of the 4017 but it doesn't move the steps forward,i think maybe needs some sort of amplification to turn that kick into square wave by saturating it!??
i'm gonna try that tomorrow,let u know if it works,if not i'm back at square 1 ,BBRRRRrrrrrr!!!

thanx roak.
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alienmeatsack



Joined: Mar 04, 2010
Posts: 137
Location: Oklahoma

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm curious, has anyone having issues with only getting part of the range on the 500k pots tried trimming up the low end to see if you can spread the usable range across the whole pot?

I'm interested in this build, as I was going to do a similar build myself to explore what I can do with an APC as the core audio noise maker in some new projects.

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anditsfake



Joined: Mar 13, 2010
Posts: 3
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: DPDT
Subject description: no go on removing the dpdt, but what about step switches?
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Ok, so I have looked it all over and decided that getting rid of the dpdt switch is a bad idea. That is, it is a bad idea unless you only want control of one oscillator.

My new question is this, where would I put switches if I wanted to have switches to turn the steps on and off, where exactly would I put them. I believe I would install them between each leg of the 4017 that goes to a pot, that is 1-8. I just want some confirmation before I turn this into a mess. Am I on the right track?

Mostly, I'm curious if the sequence would still play through if a step was turned off, or if it will interrupt the sequence and cause problems.
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airfrankenstein



Joined: Jan 10, 2010
Posts: 44
Location: france

PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that's how i did it.
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very brief reply as I have to leave for work in a few minutes and have a private message to reply to but ....

Wow! What a great thread this were to read, from beginning to end! Smile

This were basically, where I were in the 1982-1986 area, when I started playing with electronics, musically. I basically had no clue on anything, except what # values of each colour band around a resistor and how to solder. And that were about it. I've learned a couple of things since then, including with help from others on this forum, over the years.

A couple of bits of info., that may help -

- having the huge range of the pot that doesn't seem to do anything, could be the type of response that the pots are:

- linear change through rotation or
- logarithmic change through rotation.

Linear pots increase their resistance linearly as you turn them. Or shall I say - think of the value of that pot increasing in a straight line from the lower left corner of an XY graph, to the upper right corder of an XY graph, as you turn it.

Logarithmic pots increase their resistance very slowly at first, growing quickly to a huge change in resistance in the very last portion of the pots turn. (Exponential growth in it's resistance.)

Next -

- The 555 ICs, suck a large amount of current from their power source. Surprised As I've seen above in diagrams - having 3 x 555s, is going to be drawing a lot of power (current) from the battery.

- Standard LEDs that we had used for years and years, draw a fair amount of current for their full brightness, as well - typically 20 milliamps. (2 / 100ths of an amp.) Where as - super-bright LEDs, seem to draw somewhere around 2 milliamps (2 / 1000ths of an amp) for their full brightness.

Fonik earlier - had pointed out Ohm's Law. That is the basic formula that it is best to learn / memorize / etc., for calculating things in electronics.

Let's take the above mentioned LEDs and a 9V battery as an example.

- to run your standard LED at it's full brightness, it wants 20ma.

Ok. Ohm's law states that:

Voltage (V) is equal to Current (I) times Resistance (R). Rearranging those terms to calculate another portion of it ...

Current = Voltage divided by Resistance

or

Voltage divided by Current = the size of the resistance needed

So ...

We have a 9V battery, right? The LED for full brightness wants 20 milliamps, right?

Let's then plug that in: 9 volts, divided by 0.02 amps (20 ma) = 450 ohms. The closest standard resistor value to that is 470 ohms.

Is that too much? Well - let's calculate it the other way around:

9 volts divided by 470R (ohms) = 0.01914894 (19 ma). That's more than fine. Smile

(To do the proper calculation for an LED, there is also the note that the LED, like ANY other diode, will DROP a certain amount of voltage, to actually work. Red, Green and Yellow LEDs, drop approximately 1.2 volts. To more properly calculate (and possibly be confusing for me) - we would say that (9V - 1.2V) divided by 20ma = 390 ohms. But that's not hugely important right now.)

Now - for the superbright LED, we're requiring approximately TWO milliamps to light it at full brightness. Let's try again:

9V divided by 0.002 amps (2 ma) = 4500 ohms (or 4k5 in proper European expression). The closest 5% resistor value to that, is 4700 ohms.

---

(Damn. Running out of time. No time now to reply to Minus's private message. After work then.)

There is a much lower current requiring version of the 555 and this the CMOS version of it - the 7555. Smile

Now - I recall recently, that there had been mention of oscillations leaking out somewhere else. It took me a few years before I learned about putting a BUFFER capacitor on the circuit board, where the power is entering to the board. The capacitor (+ side to the power input and the Ground side to Ground), will act as a current resevoir! When there is a sudden demand for current, rather than pulling that current out from the battery all at once, it can be supplied from the capacitor! Smile Ahhhhh.

It's been standard practice, to have a larger capacitor (10uF) at the power input to the board ...

AS WELL AS

a smaller capacitor (0.01uF up to 0.1uF) for EACH chip right at the power pin for each of those chips.

That, gives you current resevoirs in the proper places, to help power requirements out. Smile

Now afore I go - in 1986, I did a little bit of fudging with a CD4011 clock circuit for making a 'tone' (as he called it) in Forrest M. Mimm III's Radio Shack book - 'Getting Started In Electronics'. This book had become my bible at that time, trying to teach myself electronics.

I made 4 of those 'clocks', in 2 pairs. I had the switchable option of using 1 clock, to turn on / off, a 2nd clock OR, to just run the outputs of each of those clocks to an output jack. That, I did twice, for 4 clocks.

(Essentially a slightly different Atari Punk Console).

In mid 1989 - I wanted to have some fun. So - I hooked that little bugger up, to 3 different multi-fx units that I had then and recorded this 30 minute piece, live to tape. (The 4 clocks - the Miller WD-12 (made Without Drill - 1st attempt - 2 oscillators - had only 4 pitch controls and 2 switches That, were it.)

Wandering Depths / Wondering Minds

I hope you like the 'tune'. I still consider it - one of my best noise pieces ever. Smile

More later ...
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 761

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That was quite some reply Rykhaard! Thanks heaps for the education. I have been busy with non-electronic stuff lately and haven't had time to experiment. Perhaps my colleague in our APC 4017 lab in France could follow up on the pot suggestion you made. This seems to make sense to me.

I sometimes imagine that there are more advanced builders out there who lament the days where us learners are at. Slow and frustrating as it seems at times, there is something great about exploring the territory without a map. Thanks for the compass anyway!

Steve
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

-minus- wrote:
That was quite some reply Rykhaard! Thanks heaps for the education. I have been busy with non-electronic stuff lately and haven't had time to experiment. Perhaps my colleague in our APC 4017 lab in France could follow up on the pot suggestion you made. This seems to make sense to me.


Aye. I know too well what it's like to be doing one thing that you enjoy and not having enough time at the moment, to participate in it. It happens quite often here. Heh - and we have no kids. Surprised Laughing

Quote:

I sometimes imagine that there are more advanced builders out there who lament the days where us learners are at. Slow and frustrating as it seems at times, there is something great about exploring the territory without a map. Thanks for the compass anyway!

Steve


I've never gone to school for anything after Gr. 12. I'm all self (with assistance from others / other sources) taught, in the couple of things that I know how to do. I know what you mean there, very well. Smile
It can be great fun at times and frustrating at others, without formal education in the field.
Another way to look at it though - is the lack of maturity in the field can also be seen as a kid in a toy store. Dangerous things CAN happen, but the fun that awaits the reaching hand and wandering eye ... Shocked Surprised Very Happy

I don't miss those days, 24 years later - I'm still experiencing them, in many ways. At least I'm still kickin'. Laughing

There're many very helpful people at this wonderful forum. This is a great place to be, when you're trying to learn related stuff, on your own.
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah yes, I'm a great believer in non-formal education. We can apply ourselves to anything... the information is out there!

I tried changing the 100K pots (well one of them) on the APC Sequencer. The results were not what I was expecting. Better off keeping the pots LINEAR (B). The LOGARITHMIC (A) ones don't do anything to improve the usable range of a clockwise turn. The notes just seem to be more bunched up at the very end. We need a pot which bunches up the first part of the turn! Not to worry. I'm beginning to think this is all part of the lo tech crappiness of the Atari Punk Console design.... Wink
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anditsfake



Joined: Mar 13, 2010
Posts: 3
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: Hot Clock Chip
Subject description: Problem
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I have put together this circuit holding very firm to Minus' veroboard drawings (see page 2). The only changes are the addition of switches that interrupt the sequence lines to the 4017 and I removed the LDR. When I power the circuit on, nothing happens aside from the power LED indicating that there is power, and I noticed that the clock IC gets very hot. I have inspected the circuit several times and am now at a loss. Does anyone have an idea as to what could be wrong?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi anditsfake!

I have replied to your PM. Hope it helps.

Just thought of a couple of other things you could check. Make sure the placement of C1 is correct. I just read through the first page of this thread and my clock was heating up originally too. Check that the wire I labeled A, is going to the stripboard track of PIN 1 of the 555 CLOCK. Check that the capacitor is placed the right way around.

Also, LEVEL 2 of the diagrams shows the bottom of the stripboard. Those red lines are jumper wires which join PINS 2 and 6 on two of the 555's: OSC A and the CLOCK. These can be wires soldered on the bottom of the board or solder bridges under the board, or if you want, wires on the top of the board under the chips.

Make sure the 555's are inserted the right way around. (I think I mentioned this in the PM I sent you).

If that doesn't work, run a knife across your wrist (just kidding)... run a knife between the tracks of the stripboard underneath to make sure there are no solder bridges between tracks shorting things out. Also make sure you have made ALL of the breaks in the stripboard, and in the correct place. Check the jumper wires are ALL in place and in the right spot too...

I'm looking through the version 3 diagram on page 1 of this thread and comparing it to my 'ATARI' illustrations.... Not seeing any inherent discrepancies yet, but I'll keep looking. I am away from home for another week so sadly I can't check the stripboard diagram with my build until I get home!

I'll let you know if I discover anything! Hang in there.... I'm sure we can have you blasting the eardrums of Berlin with noise soon! Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmm.... I think I may have found a problem with the diagrams I posted.

Just comparing my build with them. I'll post findings in an hour or so....
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No... it appears to be correct. The only thing I have done is remove the connection joining points A on the board and the clock indicator LED. I think I did this to gain more usage of the 8 step pots. With it connected it was 'sucking' (ha ha! Note the correct use of terminology) too much power (or whatever it is correctly called). Laughing

I have just tested super bright LED's on the 8 step indicators using the 18K resistors as show in the pot wiring diagram. I had previously removed them due to the power 'sucking' issue. Only 1 connected at present.... but (and here's the crux of this long winded tale) : I HAVE FULL RANGE OF THE 8 POTS!!!

Now to test the super brights on all 8 steps.... and check again for any mistakes in the diagrams.

Report soon.
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