electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  mosc Chez mosc - tonight, Twyndyllyngs live
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
VCS 3 / Synthi AKS inspired synth DIY
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 7 [159 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next
Author Message
radek tymecki



Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Posts: 70
Location: PL

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:38 am    Post subject:  VCS 3 / Synthi AKS inspired synth DIY Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If You're interested ask Derek for details

http://www.derekrevell.co.uk/index.html

Radek

Last edited by radek tymecki on Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good work!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Luka



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
Posts: 1002
Location: Melb.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow nice job
_________________
problemchild
melbourne australia
http://cycleofproblems.blogspot.com/
http://www.last.fm/user/prblmchild
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well done Derek! About time someone offered a clone!! thumleft thumleft
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roland Kuit



Joined: Sep 29, 2003
Posts: 1070
Location: The Netherlands/Sweden
Audio files: 8
G2 patch files: 126

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

finally!!!
i asked for this to many manufactories. i will have a look and possible order 1.
thanx for posting this.

_________________
Roland Kuit
----------------------------
research, synthesis, sound design
http://rolandkuit.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
synthnl



Joined: Oct 19, 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Ede

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great Smile
_________________
Michel, Synth.nl

http://www.myspace.com/synthnl
http://www.synth.nl/
http://synthnl.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mono-poly



Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 933
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What do Robin Wood and Ludwig Rehberg think of this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andrewF



Joined: Dec 29, 2006
Posts: 1171
Location: australia
Audio files: 4

PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I remember when Buchla clone pcbs came out it was considered appropriate to ask Don if it was okay by him.
It would be good to ask the same of Robin and his partners.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
filterstein



Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 42
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: trademarks? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My advice would be to at least not refer to it as a DIY version of those trademark names.
When you start selling things it would be wise to just say they are inspired on those models.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
What do Robin Wood and Ludwig Rehberg think of this?


Let's get this into perspective.

This project is a clone. The original design is way over 40 years old. Arguing that this the wrong thing to do would be like Oskar Barnack getting narked because someone decided to build another 35mm camera. It's preposterous.

If you want to own the real thing, fine. Go pay your hard earned cash on the real thing, what is, IMO, a lovely instrument. Just like a Moog or a Fender or Gibson guitar, this instrument will hold its value for years to come (even increase in value). Although a clone may become collectable, it will never be as sought after as the "real thing".

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

andrewF wrote:
I remember when Buchla clone pcbs came out it was considered appropriate to ask Don if it was okay by him.
It would be good to ask the same of Robin and his partners.


Fine, but that's between Derek and Robin, and hasn't anything to do with this forum. If you think this is wrong, then don't buy the pcb set, and don't get involved, but I don't think it is up to electro-music.com to tell you the difference between right and wrong.

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: trademarks? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

filterstein wrote:
My advice would be to at least not refer to it as a DIY version of those trademark names.
When you start selling things it would be wise to just say they are inspired on those models.


Just like EMS did when they 'cloned' Moog's patented filter design in the late 1960's?? Rolling Eyes

I imagine that EMS got round the original design patents by using diodes instead of transistors. Diodes having a far worse quality than transistors (not that anyone really noticed). The filter in the VCS3 was also, I believe, 18dB/oct instead of 24- again unlike the moog, and probably again, to get around Moog's patent.

Didn't the Wasp have an envelope generator that was very similar to that of the VCS3's? ie it could do repeats, and therefore act like an lfo?

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1709
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
This project is a clone.

Stealing, IOW.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever invented or developed anything of your own? Most folks who have like to at least be asked.

Very Happy

Ian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:

Stealing


Okay. You want to play that card? Fine.

Can you put your hand on your heart and honestly tell me that you have never recorded anything, either from radio or TV or the internet?? If you reply "no" then I will have to call your bluff!

Very Happy

(and yes, all my work has been copied, sampled recorded, downloaded etc etc- without my permission. Very Happy )

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cbm



Joined: Oct 25, 2005
Posts: 381
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it's one thing to nick a circuit here and there, and another thing to make a complete clone of something that's arguably still being made. I know that there is an ancient waiting list for these from EMS. I also know that it's unclear whether they will ever really go back into production, but the fact is that there are plans to do so.

Calling it the same thing and packaging it the same makes it clear that it is trying to benefit from the cache and history of EMS products. EMS is still trying to get it together to make more Synthis. Having a complete clone like this can only work against them.

Patents, if any, are sure to have expired, but if EMS has any trademarks involved, the way this clone is "marketed" may still be illegal. So, while it may or may not be illegal, it is certainly in a grey area morally, IMO.

_________________
Chris Muir
http://www.eardrill.com <– My jobby (more than a hobby, less than a job)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
frijitz



Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 1709
Location: NM USA
Audio files: 54

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Can you put your hand on your heart and honestly tell me that you have never recorded anything, either from radio or TV or the internet??

Not that I've ever used in a way to harm other peoples' rights or business interests, at least not deliberately. I'd be happy to have you show me where I have ("call my bluff").

Very Happy

Ian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
filterstein



Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 42
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Just like EMS did when they 'cloned' Moog's patented filter design in the late 1960's??


well, lawyers are expensive.

or you can clone an obx, add some shapers and call it a polykobol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EdisonRex
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 07, 2007
Posts: 4500
Location: London, UK
Audio files: 169

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know, I wish more intellectual property lawyers were into synth DIY. Laughing I'd love a pro bono opinion.

Trademarks, copyrights, patents, ethics. All different issues. Personally I would not put the letters "EMS" or the trademark word "Synthi" on a money making product, even if they weren't still trying to build them.

The patents ran out 20 odd years ago. The idea of patents are to give the innovator a sanctioned monopoly for a period of time, then release the idea/method into the commons. In academic circles, it is considered normal to at least provide a reference to underlying works, for any derivative works.

Copyrights would exist on the schematics and PCB art, also panel art. Those would likely still be in effect. I suppose that depends where they were filed. The UK has different copyright laws than the USA.

Trademark law would be the big one - Chris mentioned it already as I was thinking it.

As for ethics, well. It's one thing to clone something, indeed, to offer boards for defunct designs for other people to build, or even market a particular module/board as a tribute (the Serge VCS comes to mind, or any number of frequency shifters incorporating the word "Bode" in them), but it is a minefield, ethically. Fair use is one thing, but fair use means not selling it for profit.

Anyway, I don't want either a VCS or a clone, so it's not such a big deal for me. I won't get all worked up over it, in any case.

_________________
Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.


Home,My Studio,and another view
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.ems.com.cn/english-main.jsp

http://www.ems.ac.uk/wiki/tiki-forums.html

http://www.eurmicsoc.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMS

You get the idea! Wink Laughing

Synthi? I'm not going there! Shocked

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cbm wrote:
I know that there is an ancient waiting list for these from EMS. I also know that it's unclear whether they will ever really go back into production, but the fact is that there are plans to do so.


Problem is, it's far too easy just to sink a few more jars of cornish cider!! Laughing

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be honest, I really hope that this "clone" makes Wood reconsider the EMS thing as a whole, maybe to introduce a VCS3 as a kit? Kit's are a very British (and American) thing. It could be a very good way to take EMS, as a synthesiser producing company, forward. Idea
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mono-poly



Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 933
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's stealing.
Same design with mods and a cloned pcb.

The ems filter is a diodeladder vcf the moog a transistorladder.

A polykobol isn't an obx with a waveshaper/mixer added.

My 0,02€
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
filterstein



Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 42
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

A polykobol isn't an obx with a waveshaper/mixer added.


the first version is a fine ripoff, just compare the schematics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mono-poly



Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Posts: 933
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the kobol got more waveforms and some pwm in the vc waveform section.
It does got a pair off vca's after each vco before going into the filter.
And the filter is quite different to.
But this is not about RSF and Oberheim.
It's about selling stuff from a company which still exists on 2 locations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8930
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mono-poly wrote:
It's stealing.
Same design with mods and a cloned pcb.

The ems filter is a diodeladder vcf the moog a transistorladder.

A polykobol isn't an obx with a waveshaper/mixer added.

My 0,02€


Okay. Are you prepared to go and knock on the door of Jurgen Haible, right here on the forum, and tell him that he's stealing too?? Shocked

You really have to put this into perspective. How much is it going to cost to build the front panels and the case? What about construction and all the wiring, not to mention man hours to put it all together. Then there's that patchbay- which of course doesn't make it a synthi, because it's 20x20 NOT 16x16! Even then, so what?

I could also easily email Bridechamber, order a Zero Osc, copy the board, make up two more, then sell a few boards to my friends, to cover the extra costs. It's a possibility, yes. But then again, so what? You are always going to find those who will happily buy 3 kits, and those who will reproduce, in order to afford what they can't. Just look at software, the music industry. What about art? Most 'artists' don't make it really big, until they are dead! Equilibrium is abundant in nature.

I really shouldn't take it to this, because in all seriousness, music should not hold boundaries, but it would really interest me how much incomes those who say this is stealing have compared to those who are either not, or are sitting on the fence. I am, I suppose, in agreement. I too think (or used to think anyway) that this is "stealing" (although I wouldn't use quite such a strong word), but I am so fucked off with people who invest in companies (shareholders), and who sap thousands of money in profits from the common man in the name of progression (which it is not). That's supposed to be 'alright'.

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 7 [159 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
mps board

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use