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I've a problem with my VC'd Peak EG design ...
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Rykhaard



Joined: Sep 02, 2007
Posts: 1290
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject: I've a problem with my VC'd Peak EG design ... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey all. I don't know if this is a completely new idea or not, but I thought it would be really nice to have an envelope generator with a Voltage Controllable PEAK (as well as VCable Attack and VCable Decay.)
The idea is that - what ever voltage is entered into the unit, as well as triggering the Attack / Decay action, will BE, the Peak voltage that the A/D EG charges up to and then discharges from.
This would be a great feature to have in controlling the Cutoff of a VCF as well as the maximum amplitude of a VCA, in performance.
This same incoming voltage could also be used to control the Attack and Decay times positively or negatively, in relation to it.
(In Google searching, I've so far not been able to find an EG that works this way. If there is one somewhere, could someone let me know of it?)

I worked out the circuit possibility for this over a few days whilst at work. Last night, I breadboarded the idea for the Voltage Controlled Peak of it, along with a standard Attack and Decay setup, to see how things work.

Now, so far - the VC'd Peak of it, DOES work beautifully. Whatever that voltage is, the EG charges up to it through the Attack pot. Once that voltage is reached, it then Decay's at the rate set on by the Decay pot.

The problem that I am having, is with the comparator itself.

The negative reference side of the comparator is looking at the input CV which is dropped in voltage by a single diode.
The positive reference side of the comparator is looking at the current voltage level that is on the EG. Once this capacitor's voltage passes that, of the diode dropped input CV, the comparator is to then go high, which sends a pulse out to immediately discharge the Sample & Hold's capacitor, so that the EG may discharge at the rate stated by the Decay control.

I'm including the layout schematic here, as it currently exists on my breadboard. Could anyone point out for me please, any potential problems that there may be, with it? I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why, the comparator is not working properly.

Another note as to the hookup on the breadboard:

I also have a superbright LED hooked up to the output of the EG's capacitor buffer opamp, via a 10k resistor. It's this output, (previous to the LED's resistor) that I am taking into the positive side of the comparator. Could THIS be the problem? (I haven't checked this yet.)
At times, checking the voltages on the comparator - I'm seeing approximately 1.5V's on each of them. scratch

Thank you for any possible help on this! This appears to be the only problem with the unit and I would love to get it solved, as this would be a wonderful module to have, especially for sequencers! Smile

(Message #1000 from me! Woohoo! Very Happy Laughing )

Reviewing the message / schematic, another clarification: The breadboard hookup CURRENTLY, has the positive input of the comparator, coming from the OUTPUT of the EG opamp buffer. Not the positive input of it, as I have it drawn in the schematic, at the moment.
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JovianPyx



Joined: Nov 20, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only thing I see is that perhaps the diode feeding the comparator isn't turning on? If the input impedance of the opamp is very high (you don't specify what opamp is used), it might never develop enough voltage across it's junction to conduct.
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
The only thing I see is that perhaps the diode feeding the comparator isn't turning on? If the input impedance of the opamp is very high (you don't specify what opamp is used), it might never develop enough voltage across it's junction to conduct.


Oooooh. Actually - if I recall correctly, that could be a possibility. For quickness, I just searched around in my loose stuff and grabbed 2 x TL071's for both functions. IIRC, they do have very high input impedance.

Should I swap them out for an LM358 (of which I've an abundance)?
I'm not looking at high speed requirements here. (Well actually - for an EG, I should be.)

In theory - I'm not yet well educated enough to understand why the voltage coming from the origin (both +7.5 and the resulting full +15 supply, seemed to pass the voltage, just fine. scratch again.)

Thank you for your input! It's the only problem that I'm having, thus farly.
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could try the opamp swap, not sure how low the impedance has to go, but if it's on a breadboard, it's easy.

Aside from that - perhaps a resistor from the - input of the comparator to ground - 100K ? 10K ?

Note that the attack diode is connected to a capacitor, so it presents a very low impedance to the attack diode when it's discharged thus allowing the diode to turn on.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
You could try the opamp swap, not sure how low the impedance has to go, but if it's on a breadboard, it's easy.


Breadboard aye. I test everything that I design that way, before my first PCB version. Smile I'll swap them out for an LM358 and see what hapens.

Quote:

Aside from that - perhaps a resistor from the - input of the comparator to ground - 100K ? 10K ?


I weren't sure whether I should ground the inputs or not. Thinking on it - the negative side of the comp. wouldn't provide any discharge paths for the cap. I'll toss a 100k in there.

Quote:

Note that the attack diode is connected to a capacitor, so it presents a very low impedance to the attack diode when it's discharged thus allowing the diode to turn on.


Here, is beyond my theory again. I'll look up some other EG schematics for reference in such a situation. Outside of your 2 tips, it's been beyond me as to why there're troubles.

Thanks again. Smile
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Going by what you'd said for the diode at the Attack, I've thought up another way to separate the Attack and Decay from each other, based on Ray Wilson's ADSR. (A, D and R are allowed by 4066 switches, which I'll go to next if this idea doesn't work out.)
Logically - I believe this should work. Though - I know a fair bit more about working with opamps, than I do with transistors. Surprised (Learned the more complex before the simpler - back in '91/'92. Embarassed )

Ooops - forgot the 10k resistor before the Decay transistor switch's base. Better not for get to add that.
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JovianPyx



Joined: Nov 20, 2007
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Audio files: 224

PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:

Ooops - forgot the 10k resistor before the Decay transistor switch's base. Better not for get to add that.


Is that to be a resistor in series with the base? Otherwise the transistor could be destroyed by the base current.

But I still see a diode feeding the comparator - input, did you figure out a way to ensure the diode turns on when it is supposed to?

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
Rykhaard wrote:

Ooops - forgot the 10k resistor before the Decay transistor switch's base. Better not for get to add that.


Is that to be a resistor in series with the base? Otherwise the transistor could be destroyed by the base current.


Defintely. Sorry about not updating the schematic here. I did at my forum. Surprised Aye. The 10k to the base of that tranny to protect it.

Quote:

But I still see a diode feeding the comparator - input, did you figure out a way to ensure the diode turns on when it is supposed to?


Damn. Sad Thank you for reminding me on that one. I completely forgot about that and just came downstairs now, to try the update. This is the first chance that I've had, all weekend.

K. I'll have to ponder that one for a moment. (A small part of this design, is going back in memory, to Barry Klein's AD EG, which had routed them that way. There were also a bug in his AD though, when triggering the EG repeatedly, having it stick on at High. It never were solved.

I'll update again, once I've worked on the breadboard. (Just about to cook the first PCB for my Atari Jazz Console, as well, at the same time.)
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Latest update.

The ONLY changes I made from the original schematic so far (not the 2nd schematic) are adding the 10k resistor to Ground, at the negative input of the comparator, as well as moving the positive comparator input, FROM the output of the output buffer, that is feeding the LED, TO, the + input of the output buffer, feeding the LED.

Now - with hooking up the comparator's output trigger section, to Ground the S&H's buffer, that A/D portion is working beautifully!

But - so far - only on the full +15V power supply. The purpose of the module, is to use the S&H's CV as the Peak, which the Attack charges up to, before Decaying. My 2nd attempt, was pulling that voltage from a:
+15 through 100k, out, through 100k to Ground - voltage divider, giving just about +7V. ( I have 22R protection resistors on the + and -V inputs to the breadboard.)

This voltage, is NOT starting the A/D sequence, at all. I'm stumped here. Not enough current being provided perhaps? As the input voltage is fed to 3 different places. I wonder if there could be too much current drain.
I could try buffering the input voltage and see if that allows it work over a wider range of input voltages. I'll try that now, after checking my cooking PCB.
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would check if the S&H is being properly triggered by the lower voltage. I think that you're going to see that there is a rather high minimum voltage required to kick it. I mean, it probably won't work at say CV=0.5 volts. That symptom makes sense if the S&H is based on a 4066 type circuit, the voltage that controls the transmission gate needs to be more than (Vss-Vdd)/2 to switch it "on". In other words, just slightly more than 7.5 volts assuming a 15 volt supply.

You might be able to create a better "trigger" signal from the CV signal (assuming it always returns to zero) by amplifying the CV. Let's say that you have a gain of 50 (op amp) processing the CV. If the CV rises to 0.5 volts, the amplifier tries to create a 25 volt output, but it clips at the + rail which is fine for the trigger. That could be used as a logical signal to open the S&H instead of the unamplified CV. Then the unamplified output of the S&H can set the peak level. Getting the gain of the CV amplifier right might be some farting around - or you could bring the gain control out the front panel to adjust "sensitivity". With really low intended input CV, it can be tricky to adjust this because the more gain, the more noise sensitivity. So this too will have limitations, but I believe improved. The opamp might need a zero trimmer too to make sure that offset doesn't dorcque things up.

But alas, you may have something else in mind

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
I would check if the S&H is being properly triggered by the lower voltage. I think that you're going to see that there is a rather high minimum voltage required to kick it. I mean, it probably won't work at say CV=0.5 volts.

You might be able to create a better "trigger" signal from the CV signal (assuming it always returns to zero) by amplifying the CV. Let's say that you have a gain of 50 (op amp) processing the CV. If the CV rises to 0.5 volts, the amplifier tries to create a 25 volt output, but it clips at the + rail which is fine for the trigger. That could be used as a logical signal to open the S&H instead of the unamplified CV. Then the unamplified output of the S&H can set the peak level. Getting the gain of the CV amplifier right might be some farting around - or you could bring the gain control out the front panel to adjust "sensitivity". With really low intended input CV, it can be tricky to adjust this because the more gain, the more noise sensitivity. So this too will have limitations, but I believe improved. The opamp might need a zero trimmer too to make sure that offset doesn't dorcque things up.

But alas, you may have something else in mind


Excellent! Thank you for THAT suggestion! Or I could do it, as a comparator on the input. Setting it to send the trigger to the S&H at any input that's over +1.5V, whilst at the same time maintaining the buffer that the input CV. (I.E. - splitting the CV before the input - 1 to the input comparator for triggering the S&H and the other continuing on the S&H.)

Thank you for that suggestion! Smile

Now - the next update:

I set up a pot, to drop the supplies voltage from full to zero, along wtih a momentary button for triggering the EG. This voltage is buffered at an LM358 1/2, with a 100k to Ground on the positive input as well. (I was getting stray voltages without it.)

Every voltage from full down to about +5.3 triggered the EG, with no problems! I were happy as heck about THIS!

Until I checked the output voltage. Sad +11V at the output buffer. ??? But - the input CV was +5.3V ...

So - now here's a new trouble to track down. I'll have to try and figure out why the S&H is not outputting, that which is coming into it. (I'm wondering if the S&H trigger time could be too long? But - it's using the same cap. / resistor values that were on P.Grenader's S&H schematic. (My only difference is using a 33nF poly cap instead of the recommended 22nF poly, that I and my local supplier are out of.)
Since I'm not having to have that voltage held for any length period, I wonder if dropping the value by a decimal or 2, could help ... but still - this doesn't directly answer the problem, as to why the output voltage is more than doubled, with the S&H circuit itself, unmodified.

I'll have to double check everything on the breadboard then.

For now - my PCB for my Atari Jazz Console came out 99% perfectly. I'm going to see if I can get it all constructed, today. Simple build.
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh you're welcome (if it helps!) Smile

Yeah, a comparator (which is really just a high gain amplifier) should work and eliminate any trouble from opamps that like to play "latch up".

I'll bet you can take the 1.5 volt threshhold even lower.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
Oh you're welcome (if it helps!) Smile


That, you've defintely been so far! Smile (In teaching myself, it takes awhile to learn as much as possible. But ... fun, whilst learning. Wink )

Quote:

Yeah, a comparator (which is really just a high gain amplifier) should work and eliminate any trouble from opamps that like to play "latch up".


Which I've seen in the past, as well - immediately thinking of Barry's AD EG, years ago.

Quote:

I'll bet you can take the 1.5 volt threshhold even lower.


I've tried to figure the useful / needed range for having an envelope generator start, with a VC Peak ... I guess it would be best figured in triggering such. With a +10 range, perhaps a +1V Attack / Decay could work very well, subtley. Hmmm. K. I'll try the comparator with a +1.5V threshold and work with it with a VCA and VCF at various response levels to see / hear how the lowest level would work. The ear's should tell. Smile

Overall - I don't THINK, this problem should be a difficult one to solve. At the beginning of the breadboard, I had tested the S&H first, after it were all hooked up and it WERE spitting out the voltage that were coming into it. Something's happened since then to amplify them and that should be simple to find.

I hope. Laughing
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

At work today, due to the input CV that starts this entire thing working, not being passed on to the 'Peak', I started coming up with a completely new circuit design at work today (whilst I had the free moments, through the day.)

I'm going to start working the schematic out now, for breadboarding. More on it later. Smile (Abandoning the inclusion of the Peter Grenader S&H.)
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe you're not interested in an ADSR type EG, but here's something I built up on breadboard and it worked:

http://home1.gte.net/res0658s/fatman/ADSR3e.gif

It uses a TL082, 4069UB and a bunch of diodes.

This was designed for a FatMan, hence the odd power supply voltages, but these can be changed. I believe that the output voltage rises to 6.5 volts at peak.

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
Maybe you're not interested in an ADSR type EG, but here's something I built up on breadboard and it worked:

http://home1.gte.net/res0658s/fatman/ADSR3e.gif

It uses a TL082, 4069UB and a bunch of diodes.

This was designed for a FatMan, hence the odd power supply voltages, but these can be changed. I believe that the output voltage rises to 6.5 volts at peak.


Thankee for the mention of that! I'll have a look after I reply. At the moment, my main desire is for a percussive EG. I've also always been a fan of AD EGs, tho', I've only ever build Barry Kleins.
I AM a fan of ADSRs as well (eventually wishing to design / buidling a VCADSR.)
So - yes, I DO have interest in them! Smile Without looking at yours (currently looking at Ray Wilson's Retriggerable ADSR), they tend to have a heck of a lot more circuitry to them tho. Sad
The rough designs that I've come up wtih at work today, for the new implementation of it, have roughly, so far:
- opamp buffers and comparators
- flip flop (doable from NAND gates, aren't they?)
- full CD4066 (2 used for dual cap's for sampling; summed and averaged to help prevent leakage. The other 2 for the Attack and Decay 'engine'.)
And that's about it.
Though - I thought to go and look for another circuit, to base some ideas on as with my limited theory still - my design level is still fairly basic / Lunetta-rawness'ish. Surprised )

Off I go to have a look though and a great amount of thankyous for posting it. Smile (No worries on the power supply differences. I usually don't have troubles, adapting things in situations, in that regard. Smile )
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting that you mention an AR (or AD) type for percussive use.

In my digital stuff, I use an ADSR for that. The difference is that the digital design creates a "trigger" pulse from the gate level. The same thing is possible with an ADSR. If I set "sustain" and "attack" at maximum and hit it with a very short gate pulse, it rises to peak and then begin the release discharge which will continue even if gate level is zero. I use this technique for bell EGs (but I also use an exponential release rather than linear).

I believe the circuit I linked will do that however, I don't know how long a pulse is necessary to make it track to peak before entering release. "attack" set to max makes the percussive starting edge, "sustain" set to max means the release discharge starts from peak. The release of this circuit will be exponential (perfect for bells and other percussive sounds).

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JovianPyx wrote:
Interesting that you mention an AR (or AD) type for percussive use.

In my digital stuff, I use an ADSR for that. The difference is that the digital design creates a "trigger" pulse from the gate level. The same thing is possible with an ADSR. If I set "sustain" and "attack" at maximum and hit it with a very short gate pulse, it rises to peak and then begin the release discharge which will continue even if gate level is zero. I use this technique for bell EGs (but I also use an exponential release rather than linear).

I believe the circuit I linked will do that however, I don't know how long a pulse is necessary to make it track to peak before entering release. "attack" set to max makes the percussive starting edge, "sustain" set to max means the release discharge starts from peak. The release of this circuit will be exponential (perfect for bells and other percussive sounds).


Aye. With the Liquid HiHat especially, I'm wishing for AD EGs for controlling it's modulatable harmonics as well as the VCA (and VCF if used) that it'll be running through.

When I've used ADSRs in the past for the AD function only, a trigger has always worked fine (or a brief Gate). The way that you mention of doing it, I hadn't ever tried. I'll keep that in mind as well. Smile

Now something from the past that I'd like to see how to implement (wishing I had NOT given away all of my Electronotes Sad ) is Exp. / Linear / Anti., especially for Liquid HiHat modulation possibilities. Later in time though, I'll learn how. Smile
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

K. Here's the new schematic version of the idea. I've gone through rule checking it once, quickly. I'll check it again today at work, befroe breadboarding it tonight, to make sure it's functioning properly. Smile
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