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Ace Tone Rhythm Ace FR-3
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fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:06 pm    Post subject:  Ace Tone Rhythm Ace FR-3
Subject description: Problem with adding Master Trigger In/Out
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i just bought one off e6ay, and i wanted to add trigger in's and outs's. so if anyone hase some schematics he could pass me over... just PM...
Very Happy

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Last edited by fonik on Fri May 14, 2010 3:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you open it in front there are 2 boards left and right.
Left board are the paterns and the right board is instruments.
On top you'll see the wires from the trigger board coming in to trigger the sounds.
There you can add the trigger inputs but i'd use a good envelope shaper for it.
The respond great on velocity to.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you for the fast reply! i don't have it in my house yet, though. however, from what you say it does not seem to be that complex!? i wanted to add a general trigger in and out as well (to overwrite the internal clock) - i will see...
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vtl5c3



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, that's a pretty one!

http://www.keyboardmuseum.com/ar/a/ace/fr3.html

24WSRBSMRB to you too!
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread



Modular controling my Rythmace and Buchla 100/Wiard
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oops i got a fr-2l
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Awesome track Dennis! One of the best tracks here on EM.com, I've heard in a while! Very Happy
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ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hahaha thx Smile
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

most of these media communities (2tube,soundcloud) are blocked by websense here at work. Crying or Very sad

i am looking forward to listen to it tonight, dennis.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i got the unit the day before yesterday. it was in a bad shape - but not on the inside. it still works after 40 years...
however, i disassembled the machine completely, removed all 'custom stickers', and cleaned it thoroughly. i used those automotive cleaners and stuff. now it almost looks like new (see pictures below).

now i will have to work on the inside:
the protection conductor of the mains is not connected, and i can 'feel' the current when touching the front panel. will connecting the earth to the chassis solve this? i hope so.
i wanted to add master clock in and out, to be able to use it as slave ro master. i have the schematics here, but i will need your help, since i fear i won't understand that much - it uses no ICs, but gyrators instead. i will take a closer look next days...


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adambaby



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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Matthias
I understand the Rhythm Ace machines to be very similar to the early Roland TR machines, that is, the timing comes from twin-transistor multivibrators, and a series of multivibrator counters, providing 5 volt square waves of varying subdivisions. The voices are LC resonant circuits triggered by a negative voltage pulse.
Have a look at my investigation of the TR-77, it may help you with yours..

http://www.adambaby.com/studiotech_TR-77.html

(The similarity comes from the fact that just at the time the Ace Tone machines were made, the founder left to start up the Roland company)

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fonik



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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you very much. i will definetely have to take a look at the TR-77. the rythm ace fr-3 is from end 60ies and has been built as roland tr-33 in 1972 AFAIK.
i have a schematic taken from an old german elektor magazine (1970), even with explanation on how it works in german. together with your documentation i will work it out, i hope.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

today i stepped a little bit further into the issue of adding a master trigger out and in. the first issue i ran in was the power supply of the circuit. the whole unit is powered by -15V to GND.
below you see the schematic of the LFO (multivibrator) and how ti is connected to the first flip-flop.
at the junction of TR105, R123 and R125 i measured a pulse going from -15V to 0V. this pulse is driving the first flip-flop (via R125) and the rhythm matrix (via R123 - 'O').

any ideas how to easily convert a common trigger into this one? and vice versa?


ra_fr3_trigger.gif
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ra_fr3_trigger.gif



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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the problem i face for external trigger in is the power supply of the rhythm ace. the unit gets powered by -15V to GND.

i tried a little bit with a comparator to convert an incoming trigger/gate to -15 to 0. this is what i came up with so far: i use a comparator IC powered from -15V to GND. in this simple spice model it works, however there are two major problems right now:
1st) the output of the comparator swings from -13.7V to -1.3V only. i am using a LF311 in this spice model.
2nd) i fear i will run into problems as soon as i add resistors to the comparators inputs. will i have to use matched resistors?

how could this be improved? maybe the rhythm ace is fine with that, however i would try to solve this problem.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was thinking to do it with a single PNP and four resistors ... my ASCII art does not seem to work ... here it is anyway

Code:

                                  +------------o-------< + 5V
                                  |            |
                                  -            |
                                 | |           |
                                 | |           |   
         +--+                     -           /    E
         |  |          ------     |        |v   
       --+  +--   o---|      |----o--------|      PNP
                       ------              |\
                                              \    C
                                               |   
                                               -
                                              | |
                                              | |  5R
                                               -
                                               |                                               
                                               o------------>  --+  +--
                                               |                 |  |
                                               -                 +--+
                                              | |
                                              | |  15R
                                               -
                                               |
                                               v 
                                               
                                             - 15 V


Edit : turning off HTML did wonders ;-)

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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you for your reply, jan.

however, i don't have a positive rail in the rhythm ace, just -15V and GND. and i need a rising edge from -15V to GND.

maybe i will have to build a dedicated I/O module in my modular Shocked

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
however, i don't have a positive rail in the rhythm ace, just -15V and GND.


ah .. ok ... not making it easier ... will keep it in mind for a bit.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmm .. opto coupler maybe?
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you mean something along these lines, with Vcc = -15V?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


[edit: spelling]

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Last edited by fonik on Fri May 14, 2010 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, except Vcc would be connected to ground and the emitter of the photo transistor to -15V. No light would mean zero volts out, light would mean a negative value of up to -15V.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Yes, except Vcc would be connected to ground and the emitter of the photo transistor to -15V. No light would mean zero volts out, light would mean a negative value of up to -15V.

but i need it just the other way around: light = 0V, no light = -15V. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Damn Laughing

made another couple of quick sketches .. nothing useful.

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peng



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think there is a +V line in this machine. Page 3 of the service manual shows a +6V line in a couple places. Rauschgenerator = noise generator, right?
If the positive line is there maybe that could be useful.

I like the opto idea you guys have going. If it is fluctuating between -15V (off) and 0V (on), then can we just add another transistor to logically invert that?
I want to add separate trigger inputs for each voice in addition to the clock input mod so the opto idea is appealing for isolation reasons(?).

I was also thinking of adding an offset to the base of an added transistor to try and translate 0 and +5V to -15V to 0V.

Pardon my thinking out loud. I'm working on some other drum circuits and don't have my FR-3 open for experiments yet. Hope to be more useful in a week or two. Smile

p.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

peng wrote:
I think there is a +V line in this machine. Page 3 of the service manual shows a +6V line in a couple places. Rauschgenerator = noise generator, right?

peng, these diagramms on the left side are elektor schematics, NOT the original ace tone schematics. the elektor magazine changed these parts in order to make them easier to built for their readers. these partly schematics are in a seperate box for exaclty this reason...

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peng



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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:

peng, these diagramms on the left side are elektor schematics, NOT the original ace tone schematics. the elektor magazine changed these parts in order to make them easier to built for their readers. these partly schematics are in a seperate box for exaclty this reason...


Would it be obvious to me if I could read German? Embarassed
Thanks for pointing that out to me!
Text translator, here I come.
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