electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » Wanted, For Sale, Opportunities and Requests » Parts and Components
Cliff k1
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 2 of 3 [53 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
delayed



Joined: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 129
Location: TN

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What does a knob order have to do with cloning something?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why that particular order of knob? It isn't what I would call a precision knob. The Cliff K1 was probably chosen by EMS because of its price, and that it was colour coded.

Anyway, I've made my point earlier.

Quote:
Caling someone dishonest for building a clone of something that is patent-expired, when they are not even commercially exploiting the design, is excessive and wrong.


Don, why don't you phone Robin Wood and discuss this with him? Really I mean it. I want you to. I did it. Ask Robin why he thinks cloning the unit he hand builds himself, to order for people, worldwide, is an honest & good thing. He only lives in Truro.

Of course there is nowt wrong with cloning, as long as you have gained permission to do so in the first place (those were the rules, on electro-music.com, at least the last time I looked). For whatever reason Robin Wood won't contact anyone (I even invited Robin to join electro-music.com), well that's up to Robin, but we must also respect that (even if I/we think it is silly).

FWIW, Jurgen Haible has a licence/ permission to do a EMS-style trapezoid. electro-music.com also has many other brilliant engineers who offer their designs on this forum. It would be awful if we lost them, because we allowed a free-for-all 'smash and grab' policy for all, worldwide. This is my educated opinion.

It is a very fine line.

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have no intention of building a VCS-3 clone, and no intention of wasting Robin's time. Probably, if I did ring him, he would say that he does not like people using his design. Hardly surprising. No doubt the inventors of circuits he freely and lawfully uses would feel the same way about his use of their inventions.

Professionally, I design software and electronic equipment, amongst other things. I don't like people copying my work, and if necessary I protect it with patent applications, secrecy, or software that is automatically copyright. I wish I could protect my inventions in perpetuity, but the law does not allow it, and the corollary is that at least I enjoy the benefits of being able to freely use other people's inventions once the IPR has expired. That is a crucial point.

People are free to copy my designs as long as it is within the law. If it's published and there is no enforceable IPR subsisting, I cannot stop someone copying it and would not waste my time trying. I'd like to prevent it; I'd like people to pay me billions in royalties forever, but that is not a grown-up approach to the world we live in, because I would have no legal basis on which to do so, and I in turn use the old inventions of a thousand other people.

I make a point of having a good understanding of IPR because I make a living from being an engineer. v-un-v, if you are a designer yourself, it seems that you really need to familarise yourself with IP law.

Consider this: Does Ford pay Daimler for the right to use the gasoline internal combustion engine? Dunlop for the right to use pneumatic tyres? Bardeen, Brattain & Shockley for the right to use transistors in cars? No. The patents on such inventions expired decades ago, and if they did have to pay royalties in perpetuity, all products would cost a lot more. I don't recall Ford acknowledging Daimler in any sales brochure, and I am sure Ford don't write to Daimler politely asking for permission to use the gasoline internal combustion engines in cars. Nor do they have to.

I presume you drive a Daimler, v-un-v, on the principle that every other car manufacturer is 'dishonestly' using Daimler's invention without permission.

Every circuit you build, every component, process or material, was invented by someone, and unless you build your synths by mining your own copper ore and smelting it using your own unique process, etc., you are enjoying and using the inventions of others. That's how it works.

v-un-v wrote:
without the explicit consent of the man who owns all rights to this instrument, Robin


That's the crux of the matter. What rights, in law, does Robin have?

Answer: The same as anyone else. He's not a special case, nor should he be.

Any Patents that may have existed on the original VCS-3 circuits will inevitably have expired. Circuit diagrams may be copyright. In any case, circuit schematics can lawfully be derived by reverse-engineering the circuit. Panel designs are probably subject to copyright, but are probably too old to be a Registered Design. The PCB layout might be subject to copyright, but that could be lawfully circumvented by laying the clone circuit out differently.

Robin, or somebody, probably owns 'EMS' and 'VCS-3' as Trade Marks, perhaps even Registered Trade Marks, that would prohibit Trade Mark infringement or passing-off by way of trade.

All this leaves anyone legally free to copy and build the original circuits and even sell them; I doubt there is any software in such an old design, so software copyright is not an issue.

As for making a synth that looks like a VCS-3, that is lawful for personal use. Selling ('publishing') a product that visually similar to a VCS-3 may be unlawful depending on any copyright in panel design; calling it a VCS-3 would almost certainly be illegal, but only if it was sold as a VCS-3 by way of trade.

On an historical note, the only way one used to be able to protect an invention is to keep it secret. So, to encourage invention, the King granted Letters Patent that protected an inventor's rights for a finite time on the condition that the inventor publishes the invention. During that finite time, the inventor enjoys control of the rights to the invention. After that it becomes public property.('In the public domain'.)

Calling someone 'dishonest' for trying to sell some knobs or lawfully building a clone for personal use is unfair, insulting, and could even be actionable. Perhaps, as a moderator, you might wish to consider whether flaming a contributor to this forum is wise, when they are using this forum for what I think was intended - exchange of information and ideas, and was posting within both forum rules and the law.

Last edited by Don Erskine on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Erskine wrote:
and could even be actionable.


Don, please will you get a sense of proportion? Actionable?, come on, please don't make me laugh. Also, I haven't 'flamed' anyone. Flaming involves using expletives, and shouting using mostly uppercase lettering. Have I done that?

I agreed with absolutely everything you said, but then you go and spoil it, by threatening me. Do you think that is an honest way to carry on?

I personally think demian is being dishonest. In fact I think all EMS VCS3 cloners, who haven't had expressed permission from EMS and their related partners are being dishonest, as IMHO, they should all be buying the real thing, and waiting the six or so years for one to arrive from Robin (or building from parts made by other licenced manufacturers, such as Bob Williams or Jurgen Haible). I'm sorry, but I am entitled to my opinion, this is after all supposed to be a democracy?. Whether or not you agree or not is entirely up to you. If you want to take further action about whether or not I feel someone is being dishonest or not, is frankly, ridiculous. But please, be my guest. Sue me, if that's what you want? But what do you hope to achieve from doing that?


_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't be silly. I'm not threatening you, or anyone, merely pointing out that your insulting demian is unfair and unwise. What demian may do about it is up to him, not me.

I have nothing against Robin, and if I ever want a VCS-3, I will probably buy a new one, from him. I'd like the real thing, and I'd love to support him. It would also happen to be convenient for me. Until then, I have no intention of wasting the guy's time by phoning him.

Tell you what, as you are so keen on telephoning Robin: Ask him if he has permission from the estate of Harold Black, who patented the feedback principles used in Operational Amplifiers in 1928, to use Op-Amps in EMS synthesisers. Ask Robin if he pays Black's estate royalties. Ask Robin if he expressly acknowledges Black's work when he used Op-Amps in his designs.

Because unlike demian, Robin exploits other peoples inventions commercially and profits from them.

And while you're at it, ask him if he pays anything to Sir Michael Faraday's estate for the right to use potential dividers. And if he doesn't, will you call Robin 'dishonest'?

No? I thought not.

Last edited by Don Erskine on Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
demian



Joined: Jul 09, 2009
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
I personally think demian is being dishonest. In fact I think all EMS VCS3 cloners, who haven't had expressed permission from EMS and their related partners are being dishonest, as IMHO, they should all be buying the real thing


Why don't you take a look at my website, you'll find a picture of my studio which was taken a year ago, then again say i need to buy the real thing. Wink

The main reason for me to make a clone is because i don't want to modify an original Synthi and i prefer not to buy a modified one.
When i make my own clone i can do whatever i want without destroying a real Synthi.

For the rest, i think, everything has been said, can we move on now with the subject?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Erskine wrote:

Tell you what, as you are so keen on telephoning Robin: Ask him if he has permission from the estate of Harold Black, who patented the feedback principles used in Operational Amplifiers in 1928, to use Op-Amps in EMS synthesisers. Ask Robin if he pays Black's estate royalties. Ask Robin if he expressly acknowledges Black's work when he used Op-Amps in his designs.


You have completely missed my point.

Phone Robin. Talk to him. It's easy us chatting about these serious matters on the internet, but there is nothing like feeling like a complete shitbag (which I did), in the face of someone you are about to copy their design from. Wink

Yes and you could argue about the saxaphone, and the violin, the Daimler and absolutely everything else, because believe it or not, I do agree with you!

I bet you that you haven't phoned Robin by Monday, and discussed with him what a hog it is having to wait six years for one of his Synthi's to turn up, especailly after you've just parted with £2500?

Very Happy

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

You have completely missed my point.

And you have completely missed mine. People can legally copy his old designs lawfully if there is no current Patent. And copy my old ones too. Neither he nor I are obliged to make it easy for people to do so, but I accept that there is no just reason for me to stop them.

My point is that practically all designs are based on older IPR, and his are no exception. Parts of his designs are copies of earlier inventions, and he would not have a design to sell if it were not for the earlier work of other people.

His designs, and mine, freely and lawfully use the public domain inventions of other people and it would be hypocritical to do so and then object to other people doing the same.
v-un-v wrote:
I bet you that you haven't phoned Robin by Monday

Well, as I have already said that I have no intention of wasting his time (or for that matter, mine) it will come as no surprise to you that, no, I do not intend to. It sounds like his time would be better spent building VCS-3s and dealing with the backlog.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
emdot_ambient



Joined: Nov 22, 2009
Posts: 669
Location: Frederick, MD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

delayed wrote:
What does a knob order have to do with cloning something?

Dunno. Sounds like Robin Wood designed that knob or something...or has a copyright/patent/exclusive right to use it.

The only thing the OP seems to be cloning is the Cliff K1 knob. How did Robin Wood come into this?

I mean, if someone made a new batch of Cosmo knobs would we all be worried someone was going to be cloning Moogs w/out permission or something?

Very strange.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

emdot_ambient wrote:
Sounds like Robin Wood designed that knob or something
....


He didn't.
emdot_ambient wrote:
or has a copyright/patent/exclusive right to use it.

He doesn't.

The knobs date back to the 1960's so any patent that did exist is long expired. The knobs were produced by Cliff (and possibly copied by other manufacturers.) They were used on the EMS VCS3 since 1969, and a lot of other products.

The OP wants to use them, on a VCS-3 clone for his own use, according to his posts. This is perfectly legal. The OP is asking Cliff to manufacture a large new batch and is also offering to sell them to other people.

Robin Wood does not currently own any legal right to the circuitry of the original VCS-3. Nobody can. The designs have been in the public domain for at least 20 years, with anyone free to use them as they so wish.

As far as I can work out, based on the info on the EMS website at http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/, Robin probably never did own the rights to the circuits at any time. It seems that he was not involved in producing the original design either.

Robin may have legal rights to any development of the VCS3 circuits made in or after 1990 (but even then, only if patented), and circuit diagrams, PCB designs, panel designs, and trade marks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
demian



Joined: Jul 09, 2009
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am intending to build a clone based on a synthi, but it will not have the exact design of the VCS3 or Synthi A because i am going to include some modifications in advance on the front panel, not afterwards on a copied original panel design.

I also not going to put the name EMS or Synthi or VCS3 on it, and have no intentions to sell the clone, however, when i die, i won't take it with me, so, it will get in someone elses hands by then.

v-un-v wrote:
However, some people think it is cool to beat Robin to it, by making their own clones, and without permission too. It's like walking up to Grant Richter of Wiard, telling him to 'fuck off', while kicking him in the bollocks, and saying "why pay stupid money (and have to wait on your ridiculously long waiting list) for your overpriced "monstrosity", when I can make it at home for nothing?".


I also want to respond on this, building a clone has nothing to do with beating Robin in whatever context you may put it in, building a clone is something i really would like to do because is gives me the possibility to make something beautiful with my own hands, and afterwards having something really special for me.

About costs, making a clone myself will also cost quite some money but also lots of time which is probably worth more than the costs of a real Synthi.

For the rest, as Don Erskine has pointed out quite clearly several times now, there is nothing against building a clone for yourself, and there is nothing against having produced this Cliff knobs, except, (as i said before) there will be some people who dislike the idea that they will be used on some Synthi clones eventually, which is absolutely legal.

I hope we can now finish this discussion, and go back to the original topic.

At this moment there is interest for about 500 knobs.
If you have interest or want more information, pm me your email address and i'll contact you.

2.90 euro a piece incl. VAT
No discounts unless you order more than 250 pieces.

Best wishes,
demian
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
emdot_ambient



Joined: Nov 22, 2009
Posts: 669
Location: Frederick, MD

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
I am intending to build a clone based on a synthi, but it will not have the exact design of the VCS3 or Synthi A because i am going to include some modifications in advance on the front panel, not afterwards on a copied original panel design...and have no intentions to sell the clone...

Which is the same thing J.Haible did, and what another DIY stalward, Yves Usson (aka YuSynths) documented. And no one seems to have a problem with their projects.

Knob away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

emdot_ambient wrote:
And no one seems to have a problem with their projects.


Do any of you actually read the threads, or do you just make it up as you go along? Rolling Eyes

As far as I know, both Jurgen and Yves both asked for permission to clone circuits in the Synthi. That's why Jurgen is currently offering an EMS-style trapezoid generator, because he got permission from EMS to do so.

Anyway, that's besides the point. It is just out of politeness to ask someone whether you can do something or not. If you don't, then you are plain rude.

Jurgen has already said that building one of these things cost Jurgen pretty much the same if he were to purchase one outright. It seems really silly to me to clone something that is at the end of the day, going to cost me the same for one that I bought straight from EMS- doesn't it? Therefore wouldn't it be best just to order the real thing instead? Rolling Eyes

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PS, I've got a load of coloured Cliff K1 knobs (on my Jen SX1000). If anyone wants them, they can offer me silly money...ahem...an offer, for them too. What do I care? I just stick some other ones on! Laughing
_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think this debate should continue, as IP is an important issue. However, out of respect to the OP, let's start a new thread.

v-un-v, unless you seek permission from EVERY inventor of every invention and innovation used in anything you build, you will, I hope, see the absurdity of your position. Don't preach about what is polite when in the next breath you insult people lawfully using designs in the publiic domain by calling them 'dishonest'.

Robin Wood did not design the VCS3, does not own the circuit designs of the original version, and almost certainly never did. The VCS3 circuit designs certainly rely on earlier intellectual property and I am in no doubt that Robin Wood does not (and need not) seek permission from all earlier inventors, even though he uses their work for commercial gain.

What he may own are limited rights relating to copyright of panels and PCBs , circuit designs produced after 1990 (even then, only if they were patented), tooling, and limited rights in the unregistered trademarks EMS and VCS3.

You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of IP which is making you look very silly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Erskine wrote:

You are demonstrating a lack of understanding of IP which is making you look very silly.


That may be the case (which it is partially). But I really don't care, because I am the only person in this thread who has actually spoken to Robin. I am therefore quite happy to look (in you eyes) silly, because at least I am trying to be consistent.

I have asked you Don, to phone Robin, and you have failed to do so. All I am trying to do is be consistent, with another human being's request (something which you will probably agree, is sadly lacking in Britain today, even if I think he is being too- who knows, Wood is a very private man, perhaps he is going through some hard personal times, I don't know?)- that is all.

Until you or anyone phone's Robin, I can't take any of you seriously, and actually it is yourselves, I'm afraid, who leave with egg on your face. Sad

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There you go, insulting me, calling me a failure because I did not do something you wanted me to do. Grow up v-un-v, I do not dance to your tune.

As I said, I have no intention of bothering Robin, whether you want me to or not, and I am not sure it is appropriate for you to be posting his phone number on a forum and inviting people to call him, even if it is his business number. I'm not using his designs, so why should I bother a stranger who you describe as ' a very private man' and you curiously suggest is perhaps 'going through some hard personal times', especially as you also say he does not want to be involved in this forum.

Now let's show some courtesy to the OP and take the debate here http://electro-music.com/forum/post-309285.html#309285
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TekniK



Joined: Aug 10, 2008
Posts: 1062

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is this kind of bullshit talk have to do with the intention of the topic starter,

He just offer a groupbuy to let manufacture some style of knob thats still available in the catalog from the manufacturer.

If he pays them he can made 1000,5000 or even made 100.000,if he like, he can send every member of the forum some free,excepting you probably..

He don't have to contact a completely forgotten Robin Wood or something,this guy have just nothing to say abouth these knobs!

Nobody complained abouth the Rogan knob groupbuys.

So give the guy a break,and don't mis-use your personal emotions or thoughts as an moderator!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blue Hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 20581
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 148
G2 patch files: 318

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think v-un-v is not the only one in this thread who brought in some emotions, so apparently it's quite a stirring subject. Anyway that part of the discussion has more or less been been split off to here.
_________________
Jan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ricko



Joined: Dec 25, 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Sydney, Australia
Audio files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use the Cliff K2 knobs on my ETI 4600 and synth projects. I laid in a store of some of the last ones available from Cliff in Brisbane a few years ago. I have a mate who can machine down (by punch cutting or by hand snipping) the aluminium inlays into the smaller size (only larger inlays were available then.)

The K2 knobs are great little things, like tiny daleks. They are particularly appropriate for a matrix-based synth like the ETI, I think. And I use the larger knobs for the bottom, because it reminds me of a 70s RME radio mixer control panel I used to work on, which had the large Cliff knobs or ones much like them.

You can see an older photo at
http://www.eti4600synthesiser.org.uk/RickJelliffePhotos.htm

The premise of the one of the earlier threads, that the only reason someone would want these knobs is to clone the EMS synths and somehow put someone else out of their business, is rather nutty, I am afraid. They are beautiful objects: a mate who makes hi-fi's snarfed some from me, because they are are so cool.

I'd love to see more of these knobs floating about.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
haima



Joined: Jul 25, 2008
Posts: 40
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great looking synth Ricko!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
derekrevell



Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 32
Location: London, U.K.
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:49 am    Post subject: Cliff K1 Knobs
Subject description: Knobs in general
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just came back from a visit to Xin Xiang in China, whilst I was there I found a place selling K1, K2, and K3 style knobs, the price I paid was £0.08 each, I of course I did buy all they had in stock, I shall of course be making them available on my web site in due course, should anyone want replacements.
_________________
If it isn't broken, don't attempt to fix it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Minimoog56



Joined: Sep 21, 2009
Posts: 9
Location: The nations capital...

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hasn't Robin taken people's deposits years ago for new production Synthis and never produced a single one? Wasn't Robin an EMS staffer but not the designer/owner? Isn't Clif the owner of the design patents for the K1 knob and not EMS/Robin? Hasn't the K1 knob and its variants been used on a variety of British products over the years including the Marshall Supa Fuzz and Sola Early Tonebender amongst others?

Isn't the EMS Synthi the only one of the great 3 music boxes (including Moog/Buchla) of the 70's not currently in production? Robin is the equivalent of the guy owning rights to classic soul or rock tracks and sitting on them for years rather than offering a well packaged reissue for the artist and fans.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 8932
Location: Birmingham, England, UK
Audio files: 11
G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Minimoog56 wrote:
Robin is the equivalent of the guy owning rights to classic soul or rock tracks and sitting on them for years rather than offering a well packaged reissue for the artist and fans.


Yep, you hit the nail on the head there. Rolling Eyes

However, there is hope. And that hope is called Derek Revell. Very Happy

_________________
ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
derekrevell



Joined: Mar 22, 2008
Posts: 32
Location: London, U.K.
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:02 pm    Post subject: Cliff Knobs K1C Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've just ordered some K1C knobs from Cliff Electronic Components, they are still making them, minimum order 100 0ff @ £0.414 each + P&P + VAT, I asked if anyone could order the knobs, the answer is yes, if you pay cash (cheque is OK) Best regards Derek Revell
_________________
If it isn't broken, don't attempt to fix it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 2 of 3 [53 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Wanted, For Sale, Opportunities and Requests » Parts and Components
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use