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 Forum index » Wanted, For Sale, Opportunities and Requests » Parts and Components
Cliff k1
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demian



Joined: Jul 09, 2009
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:15 am    Post subject: Cliff k1 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I want to start up a production for Cliff K1 Knobs.

-edit-

This is not going to happen anymore, i couldn't find enough people to make this groupbuy happen.
I am sorry for those who were interested.

Regards,

demian

Last edited by demian on Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Original Cliff K1 Knobs for EMS Synthi VCS3 or AKS Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:

Prices will be :


Shocked

How much??? Shocked

You do realise that these were originally "budget knobs"??

I well, some sucker with far too much money to burn will fall for this cunning little money spinner.

I suppose you could also advertise them as replacement knobs for Jen's SX1000? They look roughly the same. Idea

oh yes, welcome to electro-music.com too Demian!

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demian



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

It doesn't make any sense to argue about prices, these knobs are not available anymore, i am about to startup a completely new production off this knob's in a other factory, this has nothing to do with production and availability in the past and this will be real Cliff K1 knobs and no 'cheap' clones which you rarely can find for about $2

It is this, or nothing.
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Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Back in the '70s there were different versions of this knob - I'm not sure if they were all from Cliff, or clones, but they were the same design.

Some had satin aluminium caps (like on the VCS-3), some had a chrome finish. The aluminium caps were sometimes colored.

Some types were push-on, others had a grub screw.

I think you need to make clear exactly what you intend to have made.

What do EMS use now? (I think they are still going and still make VCS-3s).

I'd be far more interested in affordable miniature chickenhead knobs (smaller than the 32mm long ones) in any colours other than black and white!

Correction - I just noticed you state they will be the satin finish.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don Erskine wrote:
I think they are still going and still make VCS-3s.


Yes, I spoke personally with Robin Wood (from EMS), after Derek Revell offered PCB clones on this forum. Robin still makes VCS3's, however though, each one is hand built by him, and the rest is sourced by local suppliers.

However, some people think it is cool to beat Robin to it, by making their own clones, and without permission too. It's like walking up to Grant Richter of Wiard, telling him to 'fuck off', while kicking him in the bollocks, and saying "why pay stupid money (and have to wait on your ridiculously long waiting list) for your overpriced "monstrosity", when I can make it at home for nothing?".

Yes, it's a fine line, and we are all guilty of this time to time, but I kind of liked talking to Robin. He was pleasant and chatty. It would have been great if he would have been more internet savvy (which he clearly wasn't- man in a shack, with an old telephone, sprung to mind!). Naturally he was fuming over Derek, and all the other Synthi cloners.

Perhaps Demian should offer the Cliff knows to us for 6 Euros a pop, and then with the profit made, supply Robin with the rest of the knobs for nothing? Very Happy

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Don Erskine



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not sure what demian is having the knobs made for... for all I know, he is restoring an original instrument, rather than cloning one.

If I were cloning a classic instrument, I'd not be able to resist customising it, I wouldn't be obsessive about making an exact replica, especially if originals are still available.

I seem to recall these knobs were on sale only a couple of years ago, didn't Maplin sell them?

As you say, the knobs were 'budget'. The metal caps regularly fell off. That's why I could afford them when I was a student, and why I now have a box of them somewhere Very Happy.

Unfortunately they are in storage in a container, I can't get at them for the moment.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I DO see the attraction that a synthi would bring.....



Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'd love a Synthi, but like a decent car, I'd rather save up for the real thing! Cool

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TekniK



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
Hi,

It doesn't make any sense to argue about prices, these knobs are not available anymore, i am about to startup a completely new production off this knob's in a other factory, this has nothing to do with production and availability in the past and this will be real Cliff K1 knobs and no 'cheap' clones which you rarely can find for about $2

It is this, or nothing.


+1 Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
Hi,

It doesn't make any sense to argue about prices, these knobs are not available anymore,

It is this, or nothing.


Not available anymore? Not according to Cliff! Wink

http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/products/knobs/index.htm

Very Happy

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demian



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
demian wrote:
Hi,

It doesn't make any sense to argue about prices, these knobs are not available anymore,

It is this, or nothing.


Not available anymore? Not according to Cliff! Wink

http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/products/knobs/index.htm

Very Happy


Hi,

I am not sure what you mean by posting this link, the link only says Cliff have this knob their productlist, but it is not in stock,
it has to be made first and you have to order at least a lot more then 1000 knobs before they will do so, even their website says you can buy them per 100 or 200, i am afraid, that is not correct,
orders are taken when buying 2000 knobs or more at once, if you don't believe me, and i get that feeling, please mail Cliff. Smile

As i said before, i am serious on this, the knobs will be produced when i have orders for around ~= 1000 knobs.

At this moment there is serious interest in some sets, but it's not enough yet to let start the production.

If someone is interested in buying a large amount at once, i can make a good offer, just contact me via pb.
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TekniK



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
the link only says Cliff have this knob their productlist, but it is not in stock,
it has to be made first and you have to order at least a lot more then 1000 knobs before they will do so...


so... , +2 Wink
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demian



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

TekniK wrote:
so... , +2 Wink


Thank you. Cool
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janvanvolt



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would be in for a set of 33 Smile
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demian



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you, i'll send you a pm.

I also have received some examples from Cliff of the FC1616 (or K1) knobs, i'll post an image later this week.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:

I also have received some examples from Cliff


From Cliff? I thought you said that they didn't have any? Or at least said that you would have to put in an order of 1000 in order to get any? Do they have samples to give out? I'm confused. Confused

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demian



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

Can you please stop trolling in this thread since you are not interested, your getting a bit annoying now.

Here is what i received from Cliff.

People who are interested in some knobs, let me know via a pm on the forum.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

It is possible for me to lower the price a bit, but then i have to sell more than the mentioned 1000 knobs in advance, but i'll consider this, so, again, if you have interest, pm me with your email address and i will contact you.

I also have some original EMS panel meters for sale, you can find information in this thread :

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-44253.html
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
Hi,

Can you please stop trolling in this thread since you are not interested, your getting a bit annoying now.



Hi (as you so casually put it)

In a nutshell;

No.

I tell you what, here's Robin Wood, from EMS's phone number;

+ 44 (0)1726 883265

Give Robin a call and and tell him that you are going into production with a Cliff K1 knob- perfect for his Synthi VCS3 or AKS. I'm sure Robin will be thrilled to hear from you, that there is a competitor to the original manufacturer of these parts- especially if you offer them at a cheaper price than what Cliff are currently offering them for.

I'm also sure that Robin would love to hear that you are also supplying knobs to those who want to clone his handmade VCS3/ AKS product. Of course, if you don't market this sale of knob as that, then I'm sure there shouldn't be a problem. But it does seem rather strange that out of the bazillions of knobs that you can buy out there- some being even better looking than the K1, you should have a special interest in this particular knob?!

If you are still fed up with me 'trolling' in your cosy little thread, then you can always call a moderator to bar me. Oh hang on a sec...what I am a moderator? Me? Oh yes... so I am! Rolling Eyes (Where's Stein when I need him?!)

Tom

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demian



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It makes again absolutely no sense what you say, there is no reason to contact Robin Wood about this production-run, it is really fine with me you give credit to Robin Wood and he deserve it, but why don't you let him speak for himself.
I assume he will find out sooner or later anyway, but why don't you inform him, than he can contact me, since you are so eager on it.

I have asked Robin for permission to build a Synthi clone, i never had any response on that, i don't see any reason to contact Robin about these knobs and also don't know what he could say about it.

You can also consider the fact that there are people wanting these knobs NOT for making a Synthi clone but also for restoring a Synthi and some people want these knobs for other projects.

There is absolutely nothing against making these knobs except for some people who dislike the idea that they could be be used on a Synthi clone eventually, but if some people want to make a Synthi clone, they also can do it without these knobs, not having made these knobs will not prevent anyone of making a clone, or do you think otherwise?

Unfortunately, i cannot change that idea, i only wanted to buy a few of these knobs my self in the first place, but that is just not possible.

It also doesn't make any sense NOT to name these knobs as Original Cliff Knobs for EMS Synthi etc.. (i never said clone in my startpost, did i? ) because i need at least interest for 1000 pieces before there will be any production, if i name these knobs just as Cliff K1 knobs, it would't get the attention as it is getting now.

For the rest, if what i am doing here is illegal, i assume this thread will be deleted by a moderator, and if it's not, i assume that i may continue selling these knobs.

Thank you.
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demian



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is some real interest in these knobs but still not enough to start with production, so, i am going to lower the price.

That will also mean i have to sell more than 1000 knobs in advance, so their is some patience involved.

2,90 euro a piece including VAT

No discount unless you have interest in a least 250 knobs.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
I have asked Robin for permission to build a Synthi clone, i never had any response on that, i don't see any reason to contact Robin about these knobs and also don't know what he could say about it.


Perhaps if you told him that your original intentions were to build a Synthi clone, then perhaps he would have something to say? I don't know. You are an adult, right? What do you think?

demian wrote:

For the rest, if what i am doing here is illegal, i assume this thread will be deleted by a moderator, and if it's not, i assume that i may continue selling these knobs.


Just so you know, all projects that have been reproduced (Buchla, Wiard etc for eg) on electro-music.com have been reproduced with full endorsements from those who designed them in the first place. I've written and/or phoned people asking for their consent. It is vitally important to protect the integrity of this forum, because without that integrity, electro-music.com wouldn't be the vibrant place that it is today.

If you wrote to Robin Wood, and he didn't return your question, does that then give you the green light to carry on and copy his work, making parts easily available for others also to do so?

Think about that last paragraph very hard. Very Happy

I'm not going to delete, lock or censor this thread, because I believe it is up to the individual adult to make up their minds in a sensible adult fashion and/or manner. I hope I have now made myself clear?

Thank you.

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demian



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really don't understand your sarcastic undertone in all your posts, but it looks like you enjoy it a lot to respond in this thread.

Quote:
I'm not going to delete, lock or censor this thread, because I believe it is up to the individual adult to make up their minds in a sensible adult fashion and/or manner.


I agree totally with you on this one, this is also why i didn't understand what you were trying to do here in the first place, since it is indeed up to the individual adult.

Thank you. Wink
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demian



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
I hope I have now made myself clear?
Thank you.


Not quite, can you explain your postings in this thread : http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=vcs3+clone&t=41512

v-un-v wrote:
Well done Derek! About time someone offered a clone!! thumleft thumleft


v-un-v wrote:
mono-poly wrote:
What do Robin Wood and Ludwig Rehberg think of this?


Let's get this into perspective.

This project is a clone. The original design is way over 40 years old. Arguing that this the wrong thing to do would be like Oskar Barnack getting narked because someone decided to build another 35mm camera. It's preposterous.

If you want to own the real thing, fine. Go pay your hard earned cash on the real thing, what is, IMO, a lovely instrument. Just like a Moog or a Fender or Gibson guitar, this instrument will hold its value for years to come (even increase in value). Although a clone may become collectable, it will never be as sought after as the "real thing".


v-un-v wrote:
andrewF wrote:
I remember when Buchla clone pcbs came out it was considered appropriate to ask Don if it was okay by him.
It would be good to ask the same of Robin and his partners.


Fine, but that's between Derek and Robin, and hasn't anything to do with this forum. If you think this is wrong, then don't buy the pcb set, and don't get involved, but I don't think it is up to electro-music.com to tell you the difference between right and wrong.


Thank you. Very Happy
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

demian wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
I hope I have now made myself clear?
Thank you.


Not quite, can you explain your postings in this thread : http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=vcs3+clone&t=41512


Explain? Yes. Of course. I was wrong.

As an adult, I decided that what I was condoning was akin to stealing. What's more it would have been hypocritical of me to push for a clone section of the EMS VCS3 on electro-music.com, without the explicit consent of the man who owns all rights to this instrument, Robin Wood, especially after making so much of a fuss about this very subject over the sale of my Nord Modular patches, patches that I had submitted to an archive for free, patches that someone was then trying to resell on via eBay. It would also be wrong of me to condone such behaviour after being asked by electro-music.com's site owner Howard Moscovitz, to write to of original owners of published material (that of the Dutch magazine Elektuur), asking for permission to post articles that they had released during the 1970's. Elektuur very kindly agreed, as long as we gave them a link from here to their website in the Netherlands, which we did.

However, (and I'm presuming, that you haven't?), I've spoken on the phone, in person, to Robin Wood. It's amazing how actually talking to a real human being can help put you into another perspective and change your mind about certain things which you once considered as being 'okay'.

Don't get me wrong, the one instrument I have always dreamed of owning is an EMS VCS3. One day, I will own one. However, I can't stop anyone buying your parts to make clones, but I am going to make damn sure that I make myself heard by everyone, that I think you are a dishonest trader. Sure, some people will put in for some parts- (hey, that's another thing, feel free to make use of the free bandwidth here, and the instant market to the thousands of potential DIY'ers pockets, here on electro-music.com, that you are in no doubt about having access to), but I really hope that you will not be able to get enough orders, because others at electro-music.com will realise that you are a dishonest person.

Happy now? Smile

Yours

Tom

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2thick4uni



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having had many of my (not synth or even electronics related) designs copied and counterfeited over a period of 10 years or so and seeing my company and myself personally spend over £200,000 in legal fees trying to protect our copyright and design rights I'd like to point out a few things I learnt along the way.

As I understand it under UK law there is absolutely nothing illegal about producing your own exact clone of anything, whether it be a VCS3, a Rolex watch or an Intel i7 processor, nor is it a crime to sell parts to others to build their own clones / copies as long as they are for their own use and not for profit. The clone must NEVER be sold however, even at a loss, as that constitutes counterfeiting or passing off and is a crime. I don't see a problem with with this, I have built clones of synths myself and marvel at the talent of others that have done the same, including our very own JH who has improved many original designs way beyond their original functionality. It is an excellent way to learn all about the original design and you develop a repect for the designer and his/her solutions. I would encourage anyone to build a clone, either an absolutely exact copy or an improved version - however we must draw the line very clearly; clones must NEVER be sold, given away, swapped or leave the ownership of the builder; nor should any copyrighted material or intellectual propery be distributed unless they are in the public domain or permission has been given by the owner of the IP rights.

I don't see a problem with selling Cliff K1 knobs, I'd love to buy some to build my own clone but have neither the funds or time. I would however most strongly condemn anyone selling VCS3 or Synthi clones that used them.

So I'd like to suggest that the forum guidelines on this are that building clones is ok and can be encouraged, selling or otherwise disposing of them is totally unacceptable and should result in the strongest of response including banning all people concerned from the forum and passing all information to the relevant companies and assisting with prosecution of the people concerned. The MidiBox forum works in this fashion, anyone selling a midibox without the consent of Thorsen (ip rights holder) becomes persona non grata on the forum.

Just my thoughts on how to handle this issue; feel free to disagree, flame, humiliate, nod sagely or ignore Rolling Eyes

Allan
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Don Erskine



Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 39
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

2thick4uni wrote:
Having had many of my (not synth or even electronics related) designs copied and counterfeited over a period of 10 years or so and seeing my company and myself personally spend over £200,000 in legal fees trying to protect our copyright and design rights I'd like to point out a few things I learnt along the way.

As I understand it under UK law there is absolutely nothing illegal about producing your own exact clone of anything, whether it be a VCS3, a Rolex watch or an Intel i7 processor, nor is it a crime to sell parts to others to build their own clones / copies as long as they are for their own use and not for profit. The clone must NEVER be sold however, even at a loss, as that constitutes counterfeiting or passing off and is a crime. I don't see a problem with with this, I have built clones of synths myself and marvel at the talent of others that have done the same, including our very own JH who has improved many original designs way beyond their original functionality. It is an excellent way to learn all about the original design and you develop a repect for the designer and his/her solutions. I would encourage anyone to build a clone, either an absolutely exact copy or an improved version - however we must draw the line very clearly; clones must NEVER be sold, given away, swapped or leave the ownership of the builder; nor should any copyrighted material or intellectual propery be distributed unless they are in the public domain or permission has been given by the owner of the IP rights.

I don't see a problem with selling Cliff K1 knobs, I'd love to buy some to build my own clone but have neither the funds or time. I would however most strongly condemn anyone selling VCS3 or Synthi clones that used them.

So I'd like to suggest that the forum guidelines on this are that building clones is ok and can be encouraged, selling or otherwise disposing of them is totally unacceptable and should result in the strongest of response including banning all people concerned from the forum and passing all information to the relevant companies and assisting with prosecution of the people concerned. The MidiBox forum works in this fashion, anyone selling a midibox without the consent of Thorsen (ip rights holder) becomes persona non grata on the forum.

Just my thoughts on how to handle this issue; feel free to disagree, flame, humiliate, nod sagely or ignore Rolling Eyes

Allan

+1. Cloning is not an offence, it is the unauthorised commercial exploitation of subsisting IPR that is illegal.

Few circuits are entirely original; if IPR was eternal, and using and developing earlier designs was forbidden, nothing would be developed. Anyone who designs stuff is in some way standing on the shoulders of giants.

Or maybe no-one should use a summing op-amp on the VC input of a VCO because somebody else, in the distant past, thought of it first.

Patent law is designed to let IPR pass into the public domain after a set period of time. That is intentional. It is part of the bargain an inventor makes with the state for enjoying the protection in law of a patent for a defined period of time.

Utilitarian electric circuit designs are not subject to copyright, because they have no aesthetic value. The law intends that an inventor should seek the protection of a Patent if they wish to protect their IPR.

Designs, be they by EMS, me or anyone, eventually pass into the publlic domain, and there is nothing unlawful in copying them and even commercially exploiting them once they have passed into the public domain. (publication and being in the public domain are not the same thing, BTW).

Caling someone dishonest for building a clone of something that is patent-expired, when they are not even commercially exploiting the design, is excessive and wrong.

Last edited by Don Erskine on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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