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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
asking for modular synth knowledge
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tomte



Joined: Nov 27, 2010
Posts: 27
Location: sweden

PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: asking for modular synth knowledge Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i have become more and more interested in learning more about modular synths and I have looked around the web trying to pick up things here and there, however, i´m not getting much wiser.

I've been doing music for quite some time, both rock o pop but also electronica / house music. i have always used either hardware or software synths, right now I´m turning knobs in thor and subtractor (reason). but I always used synths without knowing what I'm doing, just randomly. I know about adsr and some more, but I feel extremely limited.

the idea that has grown in me is to buy me some kind of a modular synthesizer system and use it with Pro Tools and Reason, but i don´t like the idea of just buying stuff and then sit there and scratch my head, so i´ll take my first stumbling step here and ask gently:

whats the best way to learn about synths? where do I get understandable info? maybe there are tutorials of any kind? although I am a comfortable bastard who will not read manuals and stuff easily, i might even do this.

thanks!
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airlock



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know that there is a best way to learn about synths, and I don't know what you don't know. That said, you can always Google.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_synthesizer
http://www.modularsynth.com/
http://www.synthtopia.com/Articles/ModularAnalogSynthesizers.html
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Oxix52



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you don't mind spending a little bit of money, you could try this: https://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/avfundamentals201
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tomte



Joined: Nov 27, 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oxix52 wrote:
If you don't mind spending a little bit of money, you could try this: https://www.macprovideo.com/tutorial/avfundamentals201


hey, that´s cool! i´ll look into that. thanks a bunch!

and maybe i should rephrase if i was indistinct:

my plan is to buy some modules in the future, what would be a good way to learn about modular synths? and my knowledge is close to none. ii would love if there were some kind of tutorials available! reading is not my strongest side..
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome tomte

A modular softsynth my be a useful tool to learn more ... like the Clavia Nord Modular demo software. There are many tutorials around for that one too.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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tomte



Joined: Nov 27, 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
welcome tomte

A modular softsynth my be a useful tool to learn more ... like the Clavia Nord Modular demo software. There are many tutorials around for that one too.


hmm, never thought of that. that might be something.
thanks! and thanks for the welcome Very Happy
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

See the book "Electronic Music: Systems, Techniques, and Controls" by Allen Strange. Very Happy
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cbm



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The ARP 2600 manual is also a good read.
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droffset



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here are some interesting goodies, just the tip of the iceberg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm4Wfg52lU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XJVMd-HhAo

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tomte



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks to all! got started, loads of info in my head right now but i´ll get there.
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Keysandslots



Joined: Aug 18, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When the Roland SH-5 was first released, a friend who worked at a local music retailer loaned one to me for a few days. I took the traditional sound-building route at the time and had some fun with it, but my brother, who knew nothing about music or synthesis, managed to get some incredible sounds out of it.

I couldn't afford to buy the synth back then and I'm still kicking myself for not figuring out a way to end up with it (legally that is).

Don't discount the musical gifts your lack of knowledge may provide.

Randy
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Dougster



Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd like to throw my old website onto the list of things you might check out...

http://www.analognotes.com

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Sound



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dougster wrote:
I'd like to throw my old website onto the list of things you might check out...

http://www.analognotes.com


Very interesting site Dougster.
But I have seen that you have advised like manufacturers people like plan B with a wide documented past of swindles and lies. Not only this, also is useless as a manufacturer with an unbelievable number of reparations and faulty modules. Further PlanB was just a fake due that man had no clue of electronics. Tell me if not, how is possible that he was not able to design a simple mixer properly: http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/topic-7722.html&highlight=model look manufacturer answers.
And there are other manufacturers that simply don't send what people order.

I don't know Dougster, maybe you didn't know about this. Don't offense, but you are pointing a beginner to possible disappointment. If you prefer don't face the problem I think that the least thing you could do is omit such manufacturers. Just my opinion. Do you think that I like write all this?

@tomte, If you decide buy your modular, search on Internet, now there is information that there wasn't when I started.
By the way I had bad experience with Cwejman, actually I just put my S1MK2 in its box. It is definitively useless.
And I had awful and surrealistic experiences with PlanB and Cyndustries.
Further, my name was defamed, (yes, all happened because I'm a very bad guy! Buh!) and some of my complains were used or minimized.
I recommend you DIY your modular. Yes, it is not easy. But a little knowledge of electronics will always complement your synthesis knowledge. You have the DIY sub-forum where you can found all you need to build a modular.
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ashleym



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What a huge subject. It is good advice to look at a soft synth version of a modular, I used synthedit and currently use Reaktor but this is a little more complicated than you need now!

The joy of a real modular it that it is REAL and has controls and switches to tweak and no fixed layout. If you know something about regular synths then you know about modulars. After all the synths we know today, from the Minimoog onwards, came from modulars. All the Minimoog is is a selection of modular elements in one box with a preset layout of modules. In this case oscillators->mixer->filter->amplifier.

Look at "different" modules such as wave folders or ring modulators. Easy to patch in but will add to your palette. A manufacturer I would recommend for reasonably priced modules is Doepfer.

http://www.doepfer.de/home.htm

They also sell MIDI interfaces for your DAW to talk to the modular
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Dougster



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
Very interesting site Dougster.

Thanks. At some point I will get back to it and make some much needed updates.

Quote:
But I have seen that you have advised like manufacturers people like plan B with a wide documented past of swindles and lies.

I'm sure that the OP can read about that and other incidents here and other places. I found the whole thing to be pretty abysmal, both by Peter and by some members of the synth community. I stopped watching the train wreck, and indeed, I stopped reading the muff forums because of that whole mess, and I haven't heard from Peter since I offered to buy Plan B from him.

I'm not making excuses for Peter, but many of the analog modular companies are run by individuals or small groups, so there just isn't the financial support to have all things available all the time. Most of us are in it for the love, since there really isn't enough profit to live on. I'd also suggest that most of us are optimists, so we hope to do things that aren't always reasonable. It's easy to forget that there are *people* behind these companies and that those people have more things in their lives than just serving the modular community.

The best word of advice I can give to all of you is to buy from reputable distributors and only buy things that are in stock.

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emdot_ambient



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The problem with learning synthesis from soft synths is that it's way too easy to just use presets and randomly tweak things till it sounds the way you want it.

But they're still very valid for learning synthesis on. You just have to set some ground rules when focusing on learning.

If I were instructing someone on how to learn by doing, rather than reading, I'd suggest they start with (doesn't matter if it's a soft synth or hardware) a single oscillator monosynth. Preferably one with one filter, one envelope generator, one LFO and hopefully noise and a Sample & Hold.

Anything more than that gets in the way when you first start out.

Then, start with a blank slate. Turn all the knobs and sliders all the way down and if you're using a soft synth or a hardware synth with presets, save the preset as "Blank" or "Default" or whatever, assuming there's no blank or default setting already. Best for it to be making no noise at all.

Then start with nothing but the oscillator going into a low pass filter with the filter frequency all the way up. Set the Envelope Generator to full Sustain, no Attack, Decay or Release. Now switch between wave forms to familiarize yourself with their sounds.

Then connect the LFO to the Oscillator's pitch and switch between the LFO's wave forms to hear even more dramatically what the different wave forms sound like. Slowed down to LFO speeds, it's quite evident to the ear what their shape is.

Then play with the filter cutoff frequency and resonance.

Then the EG's ADSR.

Then just mess around with the knobs, trying out the Sample & Hold and whatever.

That's basically how I figured synths out, using an ARP Axxe back in the 70s.
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emdot_ambient



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn't even touch a modular soft synth until you're familiar with the basics as listed above. Synthesis and modulars in particular are way deeper than my recommendations for beginners, but I've never found a soft synth modular that's particularly user friendly or intuitive, even for rather simple tasks.

I own Vaz Modular and Moog Modular V and have used old copies of KarmaFX, but all of them are significantly different experiences than real hardware modulars. They all have limitations and/or UI issues that make them unwieldy, IMHO. Much more confusing, I think, than the real thing. And they're not particularly cheap. Demo versions will give you a flavor, but not usually enough to really learn much.

I think the strangest concepts that beginners run into with modular gear is that oscillators are always on, envelope generators don't actually process sound, and that pitch and note triggering/shaping are handled seperately.

Soft synths hide those facts. Soft synth oscillators are always run into virtual amplifiers and their pitch inputs (1V/Oct, exponential FM, whatever you want to call it) are automatically controlled by MIDI Note, just as their envelope generators are automatically controlled by MIDI On and Off signals, and the envelope generators automatically control the virtual amplifiers.

So even if you learn on a soft synth and then get your hands on a real modular, there are likely to be a couple WTF? moments.

Shoot, I had one the other night when testing a newly built filter's resonance control. For a second I couldn't figure out why there would be a residual sound when I stopped playing my Axxe's oscillator through the filter.......the was in self oscillation, so of course it always produced a sound! Couldn't believe I got surprised by that one!

What a maroon!
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

emdot_ambient wrote:
I wouldn't [...] maroon!


The Nord demo I mentioned is not really like you described things - being closer to an analog synth conceptually, trust me it's brilliant Laughing .

I agree with you that one should best try simple things, gradually expanding, its overwhelming otherwise. Avoid factory presets, better - delete 'm, and experiment!

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I second that, Jan. The Nord Modular demo app is pretty close to the classic utility module design in analog modulars.

It should be useful for learning the basic concepts and for figuring out which and how many modules are needed in a future real analog synth.

Signal and control routing is also fairly sensible vs. how things work in a real analog modular.

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monads



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Get a semi-modular like a Cwejman S1 and some synth books. You can go the softsynth route but I think the hands on experience is important in applying learned techniques. Another good old book besides Allen Strange is "Electronic Music Synthesis" by Hubert S. Howe
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tomte



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks, lots of advices, cool! yeah, i have started with the thor synth in reason, creating sounds from scratch, actually the for the first time, not loading up a preset and start turning knobs randomly. checked out tutorials and such on youtube, i like the sound of synthesizer.com Smile
yesterday i tried out moog modular, wich was pretty cool but kind of big. and the sequencer was kind of hard to get synched to my daw, even when it was midi synched.

today i´m gonna start the dvd "Analog Synthesis in a Digital World", hopefully that will give something. and so the quest goes on!!

and next step, will be the nord modular demo. this is fun although the production/songwriting-side of me is nonexistent at the moment.

cheers
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Sound



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Dougster

Quote:
but many of the analog modular companies are run by individuals or small groups

If you say -Ship friday- You must ship Friday. Big or little company. There is not discusion. Ok, someone can have an inconvenience, and occasionally delay a shipment some days. But this is not the case. It is not possible wait for one year or two years for something and not receive any other explanation than "next month ship".

Quote:
It's easy to forget that there are *people* behind these companies and that those people have more things in their lives than just serving the modular community.

I think that some manufacturers and some of you forget that customers are people that have more things in their lives than be lied by a manufacturer.

About the "serve the modular community" sorry but I think that there is a lot of people that have no any interest in belong to any community nor be served. Just pay for something and want that something. Remember that there are a lot of common people out there.

Quote:
The best word of advice I can give to all of you is to buy from reputable distributors and only buy things that are in stock.

This would be a great update for your site!
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tomte wrote:
I like the sound of synthesizer.com


That´s a brilliant brand. Roger Arrick´s company is of course still yet another of the the many cottage industries, but he has managed to design and manufacture great modules that are very reliable and he also delivers stuff on time. You may have to wait some weeks for modules to be manufactured but you get this info when you order and Arrick always ships the stuff on time.

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tomte



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
tomte wrote:
I like the sound of synthesizer.com


That´s a brilliant brand. Roger Arrick´s company is of course still yet another of the the many cottage industries, but he has managed to design and manufacture great modules that are very reliable and he also delivers stuff on time. You may have to wait some weeks for modules to be manufactured but you get this info when you order and Arrick always ships the stuff on time.


i must say that i liked the kind of soft, nice sounds coming out of that brand. i´m in to kind of techno/house and at a first glance i feel that those modules would suite me fine. when i´ve been watching clips with doepfler-stuff i got the feeling that they are a bit harder, maybe a bit more crazy? but i guess it depends on how you use your gear. i guess you can go a bit crazy with the synthesizer.com gear to.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tomte wrote:
i must say that i liked the kind of soft, nice sounds coming out of that brand. i´m in to kind of techno/house and at a first glance i feel that those modules would suite me fine. when i´ve been watching clips with doepfler-stuff i got the feeling that they are a bit harder, maybe a bit more crazy? but i guess it depends on how you use your gear. i guess you can go a bit crazy with the synthesizer.com gear to.


It depends on your patching style. I guess the synthesizers.com gear attracts many modular geeks that have previous hands on experience with classic vintage modulars. That will of course to some extent also be reflected in how they patch and play their modulars.
As for crazy, well.. Arrick makes modules that are very smart, kinda understated ( as you will find no knobs marked with "clit disturber" or "anal probing") and the modules play together in an excellent way. You can of course also add in modules from other brands or make your own the electro-music.com DIY way.

Doepfer? I think the general consensus is that any evaluation of the Doepfer products should be on a per module basis. Essentially the Doepfer system is just fine, but outside of a selection of the standard basic utility modules people have strong opinions on which modules makes sense or not.

I think one reason for the success of the Doepfer brand is that it is sold through retailers and there are in fact shops you can visit that have units you can play with. This is probably why the Doepfer brand has become popular with the new european electronic scene.

As for actually acquiring some sort of intuitive understanding of how it is to use an analog modular I think it it will be smart to studying the configuration of one of the mid range synthsizers.com systems and then looking into how such a rig of modules will work out within say the Nord Modular demo. Keep in mind that the Nord Modular demo is a software demo of a hardware/software hybrid synth. The idea is to set up the patch by using a software editor to control a hardware digital synth. You then attach parameters to the knobs on the hardware so you can play your patch. A real analog modular has all the knobs in front of your face so interface wise you get a more immediate and responsive experience. On a larger system you will also tend to set up several independent patches and play all these at the same time.

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