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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Bringing the Vocoder to life
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StephenGiles



Joined: Apr 17, 2006
Posts: 481
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's always one Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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decaying.sine



Joined: Aug 31, 2009
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Location: New Haven, CT, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I only have a few more parts to stuff and then I'll be ready to power up and test.

I do have a question for those (e.g., zthee) who have got far stuffing. My 1N5404 DO-201AD package has leads that are two large to fit into the available holes in the power section. Did you have the same issue? I looked for some turrets by Keystone but none of the tubular ones that I see have top holes large enough while maintaining bottom portions small enough to fit through the PCB hole.

I am thinking about getting a small drill and boring out the holes on the PCB a bit unless anyone else has other ideas.

For what it's worth, I tried thinning the metal leads by hand with a pocket knife and that just got annoying.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

decaying.sine wrote:
I only have a few more parts to stuff and then I'll be ready to power up and test.

I do have a question for those (e.g., zthee) who have got far stuffing. My 1N5404 DO-201AD package has leads that are two large to fit into the available holes in the power section. Did you have the same issue? I looked for some turrets by Keystone but none of the tubular ones that I see have top holes large enough while maintaining bottom portions small enough to fit through the PCB hole.

I am thinking about getting a small drill and boring out the holes on the PCB a bit unless anyone else has other ideas.

For what it's worth, I tried thinning the metal leads by hand with a pocket knife and that just got annoying.


I had the same issue. I don't recommend drilling; better use a smaller Wire that fits into the holes vertically, and then solder the diodes to these wires horizontally. At least that's what I did.

JH.

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decaying.sine



Joined: Aug 31, 2009
Posts: 92
Location: New Haven, CT, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jhaible wrote:
decaying.sine wrote:
I only have a few more parts to stuff and then I'll be ready to power up and test.

I do have a question for those (e.g., zthee) who have got far stuffing. My 1N5404 DO-201AD package has leads that are two large to fit into the available holes in the power section. Did you have the same issue? I looked for some turrets by Keystone but none of the tubular ones that I see have top holes large enough while maintaining bottom portions small enough to fit through the PCB hole.

I am thinking about getting a small drill and boring out the holes on the PCB a bit unless anyone else has other ideas.

For what it's worth, I tried thinning the metal leads by hand with a pocket knife and that just got annoying.


I had the same issue. I don't recommend drilling; better use a smaller Wire that fits into the holes vertically, and then solder the diodes to these wires horizontally. At least that's what I did.

JH.


I will do that! Thanks JH.
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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I filed the leads of the diodes down until they matched the holes. It took forever to do.

I've come to a complete halt with my build - I need feedback from other builders - Are you experiencing the same problems as I? Does the suggestions I've made (Example: Does altering the LPF in the voiced/unvoiced detection circuit seem like a good idea? Or do you even have that problem? Can we solve it any other way?). It doesn't feel like a good idea to make too many changes before I actually know that I'm not the only one with a problem...

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Sound



Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I put 1N4002 instead 1N5404 which fits fine, although I think finally will run the unit with external power supply which i have some of them.

Main already soldered. Waiting for a few components to start the tests.
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
(Example: Does altering the LPF in the voiced/unvoiced detection circuit seem like a good idea?


The filters and comparator of the V/U detector is mainly based on the EMS5000 circuit, so the filter functions should be good, more or less.
What I added is a hysteresis function from the Sennheiser Vocoder. But not a linear hysteresis as you'd have on the comparator. It's a hysteresis on the AC gain, which makes it "logarithmic" (linear in the dB range). This is based around J2301. As this is the main difference compared to the proven concept of the EMS circuit, it may be a good idea to temporarily disable it. This can be done by unsoldering R2307 *or* connecting the gate of J2301 to -12V. (Whatever is easier to do.)

JH.

Now playing: Neil Young, Trans Smile

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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for the tip!

I'll definitely try it.

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/mr



Joined: Aug 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

decaying.sine wrote:
My 1N5404 DO-201AD package has leads that are two large to fit into the available holes in the power section. Did you have the same issue? [...]

I am thinking about getting a small drill and boring out the holes on the PCB a bit unless anyone else has other ideas.

For those of you about to bore out the holes - make sure you solder the diodes on both sides of the PCB, since the drill breaks the through-plating and there are connections on both sides!

I'd prefer using another wire instead, making a pi-shaped thingy with diode plus two wire legs. Very easy. Smile
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tomcat



Joined: Oct 14, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well Jürgen. zthee was so brave to post his steps and finding, but from 24 of july there was 0 response from you. This i call undersupported.
No offense....

Happy to see some life here thumright
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Luka



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jurgen is on holiday

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-49281.html

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ericcoleridge



Joined: Jan 16, 2007
Posts: 885
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm curious to know if anyone has finished this and made a demonstration video. I'd love to see/hear it.
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keithwin



Joined: Jul 20, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone had any more thoughts on panels?
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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've had plenty of thoughts - But I still need to know that every function works before deciding on a panel.
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keithwin



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Still got to start mine, time is a problem. Hoping to get the smt caps on this week.
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zthee



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"Time not important. Only living vocoder important." Very Happy

I really should get down to the nitty gritty and eliminate all the bugs. But I've got a ton of stuff in the way. Soo... I'm stuck where I am.

And it's hard to test without a, at least temporary, panel. Maybe I should make one in paper this weekend.

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Sound



Joined: Jun 06, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
Looking at the points that are mention in the original vocoder thread and trying to figure out what could be done.

Quote:
(1) The different replacement signals need to be balanced in level (the noise / unvoice path is way too loud, currently). It's basically a change of some resistor values, but there are differend locations where this can be done, and the best option must be found.


So, the first things that comes to mind is reducing the value of R2645? A potential problem than might be distortion? So if it is, changing R2654 and R2649 (And perhaps R2657?)?

Or any other solution?


OK, This is how I have seen at it:

We have to balance three replacement signals of different nature. Synth IN, is of unknown magnitude and can be or not be balanced (balanced will be +6dB greater than unbalanced). "Synth In" is also compressed by U2603 network. "Exc" and "S" signals are derived from "Synth In". We can expect "S" signal be half in amplitude of Exc signal.
The three replacement signals will be expanded depending on 'Synth in" by the U2603B network.

So we need a reference, somewhere from start.

Ah! I want to clarify that R2655, R2654 and C2626 are 18K , 100K and 4.7nF on the PCB layout but in schematics and previous layout are 1.8K, 10K and 47nF. I have placed the components with the values of the schematics. (always referring to the Synthesis Amp, Compander schematics page).

Ok as, I was saying, we need a reference. So I take the audio standard +4dBu that is 1.23VRMS.

So I want to adjust R2658 to achieve the noise be 1.23VRMS at U2606 output.
Then for "Synth IN", input a saw wave of 1.23RMS at 1Khz and I want also 1.23VRMS for "S" and "Exc" signal at U2606 0utput.

I achieved it with:
R2657______ 20K
R2656______ 20K
R2645______ 20K
R2649______ 7.5K

And as I said before with the values of the schematics for R2655, R2654 and C2626.

So, in a raw way, the three signals are correctly balanced.

Obviously if Synth IN signal is bigger than 1.23RMS, or if signal is balanced -for a more accurate balance within signals- it is necessary a potentiometer on the front-panel for "Synlevel" .
Also could be interesting add an extra circuit with automatic "noise signal" gain which will match the amplitude of the "Synth IN" signal. It would be easy, since we have the envelope of synth IN at U2605 output. I'm working on it.

Opinions?
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:


I tested the noise section, and it works as it should. It didn't oscillate!

Luck? Probably. Very Happy



Yes, noise section doesn't oscillate. It works just fine.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found the manual and schematics of Sennheiser vocoder here: http://home.swipnet.se/cfmd/synths/companies/sennheiser/ It is a recommendable reading.

Could anyone tell me where I can find the manuals of the EMS and ETI vocoders. Or send it to me?

Thanks.
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The Bad Producer



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've got some info on the ETI, not sure what, I'll have a look around my computer...
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zthee



Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:


I achieved it with:
R2657______ 20K
R2656______ 20K
R2645______ 20K
R2649______ 7.5K

Opinions?


Sounds great!

Do you have any problems with the voiced / unvoiced section? Any difference from before the level adjustments? I find that the noise source is "biting through" hard on mine, but I've traced it to the voiced / unvoiced detector triggering too easy causing small bursts of noise... But if the replacement signals are leveled the noise burst might be less noticeable? (Might still have to adjust the voiced / unvoiced section as well).

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Sound



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zthee wrote:
Sound wrote:


I achieved it with:
R2657______ 20K
R2656______ 20K
R2645______ 20K
R2649______ 7.5K

Opinions?


Sounds great!

Do you have any problems with the voiced / unvoiced section? Any difference from before the level adjustments?

Just the level.

Quote:
I find that the noise source is "" hard on mine, but I've traced it to the voiced / unvoiced detector triggering too easy causing small bursts of noise... But if the replacement signals are leveled the noise burst might be less noticeable? (Might still have to adjust the voiced / unvoiced section as well).


Zthee, I noticed that at maximum mic gain the voiced/unvoiced section works better. And this will have a very easy solution, like increase R2302 (voiced/unvoiced schematics page)

However sometimes, depending which vowel, two led (voiced and unvoiced) light ON, that means that the comparator is not stable and is switching fast within the two states. This could have solution maybe changing cut-off frequencies of both filters... now just untested hypothesis.

Since, I said before, speech level affects voiced/unvoiced section, I think that first I need to adjust the mic preamplifier and the compressor. I mean the optional values forR2126, R2116, R2105. (Speech input amplifier schematics page). I'm right now on it.
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Sound



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

On "Speech Input Amplifier" schematics, R2129 should be tied from Led D2109 to the node D2106/D205 instead to the node D2108/D2107.

This is what there is on the PCB and it is more understandable.

However could anybody explain me what is doing U2104A? A virtual ground? What is its function on the bridge rectifier?
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:

However could anybody explain me what is doing U2104A? A virtual ground?


A "dirty GND buffer". Provides a GND node for the LED, while keeping the LED current away from the GND plane.


Sound wrote:
What is its function on the bridge rectifier?


Full wave rectifier for the LED, and contributing to the limiter threshold (in combination with the LEDs' own drop voltages.)

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



Joined: May 25, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
On "Speech Input Amplifier" schematics, R2129 should be tied from Led D2109 to the node D2106/D205 instead to the node D2108/D2107.


Right. Drawing error in schematics, but should be ok on PCB.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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