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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Alesis Andromeda
The most irritating feature of my new Andy is......
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kola



Joined: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 29
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: The most irritating feature of my new Andy is...... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

.....The crazy individual output implementation!

Who got paid for thinking this up??

For those who don't own an Andy instead of being able to assign patches to whatever you want voice one is hardwired to out 1 and voice 2 to out 2 and so on through to 16.

This means you can only assign monophonic voices to them. Anything you want to use in a polyphonic manor must go to the Main or Aux outs.

This in itself doesn’t sound too bad however consider you cannot use the individual outs for any patches that make use of Unison either as these too have more than one voice.
They too have to go to Main and Aux outs.

Guess what, all these voices having to go the Main or Aux outs drastically eats up any kind of use.

Id much more have liked just 8 mono polyphonic outs like the Supernova.

Another annoyance with the outs is the Main and individual outs are not as good sounding at the Aux outs.

If these outputs had been implemented properly this could have been an analogue workstation as opposed another polysynth.

Best work around is to use the individual outs for all monophonic sources. Then split the Main and Aux outs into mono left and rights giving you 4. Lead sounds should go through the Aux if poly or unision is used as it sounds brighter.

Ok rant over. Very Happy
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Mefistophelees



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm guessing the 16 individual outs is down to money. It was probably cheap to do it that way. Doing it via busses (i.e. the sensible way) would have required more components and thus cost more.

Quote:
Another annoyance with the outs is the Main and individual outs are not as good sounding at the Aux outs.


I've heard this before but never tried it - until today.
It makes a hell of a difference!

Do the main outs have a low pass filter on them or something?

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kola



Joined: Jun 20, 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi mate,

I posted this on Gearslutz as this forum is very slow (no offence)

There seems to be a reason why the outs were hardwired and its something to do with how analogue voices work.

I have heard the Aux sounds better as the route from voice to port is shorter.

I have currently given up on mix mode and am recording sequences as wav loops and as such only have the aux hooked up at this point.

Hey - im certainly no Andy guru mind you so take whatever I say with a pinch of salt. Im an absolute Andy novice
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the difference between aux and main is slight. maybe caused by the effects-contribution or the stereopot/volumepot.
let's not exaggerate, please.
about the 16 outs: it's difficult to be perfect, easy to find a stick to hit if you want to hit. be happy with all individual outs and the 2 stereobusses. lots of opportunities , exceptional for a synth.
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kola



Joined: Jun 20, 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Sunny Peddle

So what are we saying here. Positive and happy posts only re the Andy? In other words a distorted and censored view of the Andy? Surely a better idea is people post what they honestly think?

Overall I think the Andy is superb. But the waveshaping along with the ridiculously easy way you can over drive everything with minuscule values it is nothing more than ridiculous. The separate outputs has been explained to me why it is like that on Gearslutz so fair play and I understand now and can let that go.

How do you know how different in sound the Aux's are on my Andy to yours. Id say there is a notable difference. Its not night and day but it is certainly noticeable.
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i've got two andromeda's to compare the aux/main difference, and had the same discussion before on the code 404 list ( use search function they are under the tips and tricks topic )
i agree there is a difference, but it's so small that most people even argued it wasn't there. i however always stated there is, and tried to explain it. best explanation i found so far i described above.( but anyway congratulations with your good ears )
the suggestion that i only like positive posts is false and says maybe more about your distortions ,than my intentions.( hope not to sound too offensive, sorry beforehand).
the argument about the 16 outputs ?, did you succeed in making a proper mixpatch with 8 individual mono outs, and 2 four-voiced patches, with dynamic panning yet ? . i just try to say , no instrument is perfect ( just read my topic " what not to expect from the a6" by example ), but the a6 comes very close, certainly in features like 16 voices out. so i think it's not a big problem, i'm very happy with the layout of voices. afcourse we don't have to agree on everything, and no information is unwelcome when brought in a friendly/ non agressive way. at least that's my opinion
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kola



Joined: Jun 20, 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Sunny Peddle,

No offence taken but thanks for saying that anyhow.

Sure, I suppose some may actually like the way the outputs are implemented but I think its really inflexible.

I think the Andromeda is superb but nothing is without fault.

As said I have since found out that there is no other way the outputs could have been implemented. Had I known this I would have never have posted this thread.
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

talking over the a6 never bores me, so , glad you posted anyway.
the individual voiceoutputs are louder/ hotter then the main and mix out. i always wondered if a proper ( external )16 channel mixer were used, would the a6 sound very much better ?
never made the effort to try it out , mostly a few outputs or just aux/and or main were sufficient to me. but still ask myself...
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HrastProgrammer



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

kola wrote:
But the waveshaping along with the ridiculously easy way you can over drive everything with minuscule values it is nothing more than ridiculous.


Don't get me wrong, but there is no need to use that gearslutz-talk here. This is a very peaceful and relaxed forum, compared to GS, with people dedicated more to music than to technical side of the things. And we would like for the forum to stay that way, for sure.

Personally, that "waveshaping" thing (I don't know who made that term, probably someone on GS) is totally overrated. This is just the way A6 is designed - you can overdrive the signal path at various stages, nothing "ridiculous" here. For some sounds it works better, for some it doesn't, as anything else out there, big deal. In my opinion, this is an excellent feature. Would I blame my car if I can overrev it easily? Certainly not - I would either learn how to drive it properly and turn this into an advantage, or sell it ...

If you ask me, those on GS who are constantly bashing A6 probably sold it because they were unable to program it properly due to the lack of knowledge and/or inspiration, and are now crying and calling it "dull", "plastic" and "lifeless" after the prices for second-hand units increased rapidly. For such reasons, I am taking most opinions on GS with a big reserve, and they are not relevant to me at all.

Quote:
How do you know how different in sound the Aux's are on my Andy to yours. Id say there is a notable difference. Its not night and day but it is certainly noticeable.


I tested Main vs. Aux outputs long time ago on both of my A6s and found no noticeable difference, with digital and analog FX turned off on Main output, of course. I used my ears and a spectral view of various sounds and really didn't find any difference - both sounded the same, noise is comparable, both are going up to 100kHz and (probably) over, etc. So, as far as I am concerned, they sound the same and I am using both - Main for dry sounds and sounds processed through internal FX, and Aux for sounds processed through external engines.

As for the original question - maybe it would be nice, although unnecessary IMHO, to have a possibility to route any voice to any single output. But it would be complicated to implement an analog bus which will be connected to all voices and all outputs, with appropriate switcher between. This would probably have significant impact on the final price.

Just my 2 cents ...

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soundwave106



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

HrastProgrammer wrote:
I tested Main vs. Aux outputs long time ago on both of my A6s and found no noticeable difference, with digital and analog FX turned off on Main output, of course. I used my ears and a spectral view of various sounds and really didn't find any difference - both sounded the same, noise is comparable, both are going up to 100kHz and (probably) over, etc. So, as far as I am concerned, they sound the same and I am using both - Main for dry sounds and sounds processed through internal FX, and Aux for sounds processed through external engines.


I actually notice a *slight* difference, with the Aux sounding "slightly cleaner" to me. But it's so slight as to not care, so I typically use the main outs (while dedicating the aux route for an FX chain if I so desire).

Also, if I remember, part of the difference was that Aux was slightly hotter, which means that in practicality I really would need a scope to verify that my preference wasn't psychology. (People will naturally prefer hotter signals.)

I like synths with overdriven signal paths, so to hell with the GS opinion. Razz
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CoolColJ



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find a fairly larger difference between the outputs on my A6

Aux = brighter and more focused
Main = warmer

As big as the difference between using the digital IO and main outs through a mixer on most synths. That's pretty much what is happening in the A6 Smile

The main outs go through more circuitry

It's subtle but noticeable, much like the effects of valves and preamps
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe something is wrong with your a6 then ?
as normally the difference should be hardly noticeable.
i thought there wasn't so much difference in circuit either, a stereopot more for the main-out , what else did you then think or find in the service manual ??
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CoolColJ



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is more stuff there, you have the effects and analog distortion geting mixed into the main signal as well

Some people can't hear certain things, I'm one of those that can Smile
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i can hear too, you can switch the effects off with the buttons above.
for the rest the circuits don't differ, neither should the sound differ more then hardly noticeable. otherwise maybe one of your boards is broken . especially when writing that it is like a lowpassfilter the difference.
maybe try once with someone else's a6 and find out if yours is still oke ? Wink
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CoolColJ



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Too me it sounds like the main outs was recorded on analog tape and the Aux outs are not
That's how obvious the difference is to me, but some people can't hear what analog tape does to the sound Razz

And no, I don't believe my A6 is "broken" either.
Especially when you consider Mike Peake inspected it himself, and it sounds like the other one I had, since I did have two of them
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sorry , i disagree, and my ears are very oke, as are my 2 a6's and as i clearly remember the discussions and outcomes of it on this and other forums including code404.
if your a6's show what you pretend they show, the either are broken ,you have a special batch or you hear what nobody hears. in that case ...
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CoolColJ



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not the only person that has noticed this either.... Smile

I'll record some audio, to show you
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Mefistophelees



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I said a hell of a difference but after reading the scepticism I went and checked. I think a lot of it was probably volume related but after comparing the two outputs at the same volume there was still a difference, it's quite subtle but I can hear something.

I had been thinking the A6 was quite mellow but the Aux outs seemed to change that. So terms like clearer definitely come to mind.

One sound in particular seemed to show the difference. I have a patch which is quite harsh on it's own, but through the Aux outs it sounds much nicer, less distorted.

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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it there, indeed
it's subtle, that just what i find too.
seems like the sound-aux is a slight bit more direct , less softened,
would changing the quality of the stereopot change it ? i always wondered .
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CoolColJ



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Probably more to do with the op amps and summing
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

don't know, the schema's can be found in the service manual
( i once looked it up to see if better opamp's could improve the external input quality )
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kola



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hrast Programer

Im quite baffled by your reply.

You accuse me of being rude with gearslutz style posts.
Not at all. I was being factual. There is nothing rude about me. I am a respectful person who is tolerant of other unless they are harming people, property or animals.

I must maintain people on here seem ridiculously protective of the Andy. So much your not allowed to utter a wrong word about it that can only lead to a totally distorted view much like censorship on the news. This is a bad this guys.

Your example of your car over reving is one I could use to re emphasise my point.
If my car could do a maximum of 8000 revs yet if over rev'd (Not sure what over reving is) at 500 revs there is something seriously wrong as what were saying there is 7500 rev's on a 8000 rev scale is over reving.

Also its called waveshaping, not because of GearSlutz at all but because if you don't implement the following it alters the shape of the waveform on an oscilloscope.

So, lets break away from saying this is a Gearsluts view and quote from the FAQ that is actually stickied in THIS very forum and where I found it to download

FAQ 2.19 Pre Mix Levels
Quote:
In general, keep the levels to a sum of 50 or under for best sound.


So, if we take the Pre mix. The entire sum of the pre mix is no less that 500. If you go over 50 waveshaping is likely to occur. Now Im not being rude but 50 is RIDICULOUS in the face of 500.
Its actually hard not to over load the thing. Also the fact the manual does not cover this is bizarre.

I actually owned an Andromeda previously and sold it because I thought it sounded plastic and all the same. I was thoroughly disappointed with how poor it sounded. Now armed with this and other info from the FAQ my new Andy sounds fantastic and is everything I could want it to be.
So please don't tell me it makes no difference, it makes a HUGE difference.

Then we go to the Post Mix people recommend setting under 40 and the FAQ actually states 30.
So again, minuscule values in the face of things. And this advice is distributed from this forum not gearsluts.

Waveshaping results in a saturation you may or may not like. Personally I believe it turns the A6 into a very flat plastic sound but each to their own. Stick to less than the values pointed out in the stickied FAQ and the Andy is one fat superb sounding piece of kit.

Perhaps this waveshaping feature wouldn't have been so bad had you to go over 75% of the max sum of the pre and post mix to get it to waveshape instead of around 10% that to me is bizzare.


I also must maintain the Aux outs sound significantly cleared than the mix or mono outs. Sounds via the Aux sound far sharper and clearer. Funnily enough this is also mentioned in the stickied FAQ what I wasn't aware of until I just looked for it now. But then I don't need a FAQ or a Forum to tell me what my ears can tell me so easily.

I am not trying to be anything other than factual here, and like I originally stated, im certainly not meaning to be rude to anyone. I just don't want to give the world a prozac'd opinion on the A6 as everything on earth has its faults.

I honestly didn't think you guys would be so protective. I wasn't being personal, I have just invested in an Andromeda with a £2000 purchase so I can't give it my vote any more than that. Apart from the waveshaping and other more minor issues there is a lot to love about it.

You do all realise this forum will become very bland if people are only allowed to say how good it is all the time?
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think you're simply trolling
you sound aggressive and provocative, accuse people of censorship because they don't agree on your unfunded opinion.
either you have time too much to troll , or you want to talk the selling of your a6 straight for yourself.
believe what you want to believe, respect others who have long time practical and good experiences with a machine. something you don't have, seems like you simply shout, to shout.
1. you keep stating that only positive news is accepted which proves you simply didn't read the forumcontent at all !
2. you make big fuss over mix levels. "ridiculous that waveshaping occurs over 30 or 50 or whatever": a. be happy it has the possibility of waveshapping, and b. what ridiculous? levels can be set at little values as small as 0.02steps. so frustrated you can't turn your knobs from 0-10 in every patch or so ?
( ps who would put all premix levels on 10 ever, to get to your 500 point, that's ridiculous )
3. you talk about gearslutz as if you talk about a bible. guess more info on the a6 can be found on the net while gearslutz ( which i also use and post in ) isn't exactly the questionbay on facts of the a6.
overall an annoying , offensive and trolling-like attribution to this forum. and this opinion has nothing to do with the negative tendencies of the content of your opinion. (but that seems to land on waste land i'm afraid ).
simply said : you talk a lot of rubbish , people don't agree, you then state and repeat that it's censorship Laughing
still puzzles me why somebody who was so convinced of selling his beloved a6 , finds the need to spoil falsely a forumsite of people who simply use the a6.
maybe sell your attributiondrive to this forum too ?, please?
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kola



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Trolling??? How the hell am I trolling? I posted on here to discuss amongst like minded Andy members.


Threads seem to have to go your way or no way at all. Others have also come forth and stated re the Aux outs also but you push them down by saying their Andy's must be broken, I mean, the arrogance. All because you couldnt possibly be wrong. Again the Aux's are mentioned in the FAQ but you still refuse to believe it even possible.

Quote:
3. you talk about gearslutz as if you talk about a bible. guess more info on the a6 can be found on the net while gearslutz ( which i also use and post in ) isn't exactly the questionbay on facts of the a6.


It was not me that originally mentioned Gearslutz at all?? How do I talk about it like its the bible????? I have made no opinion for or against gearslutz in this thread or on this entiure forum?
So please, instead of being blatantly rude to others ld like you to evidence where I state Gearslutz is like a bible.
Please do this as I evidenced my posts. But I am starting to suspect you cant not evidence most of what you talk about.
Dont skip over this point. I want you to show me how I make GS sound like its a bible.

Also the FAQ on here backs up most of what im saying. Thats on HERE not GS!!!


Quote:
overall an annoying , offensive and trolling-like attribution to this forum. and this opinion has nothing to do with the negative tendencies of the content of your opinion. (but that seems to land on waste land i'm afraid ).
simply said : you talk a lot of rubbish , people don't agree, you then state and repeat that it's censorship
still puzzles me why somebody who was so convinced of selling his beloved a6 , finds the need to spoil falsely a forumsite of people who simply use the a6.
maybe sell your attributiondrive to this forum too ?, please?


You are aware I currently own an Andromeda right? Just 2 weeks ago I spent £2000. Again your reply makes absolutely no sense at all????

You are a very hostile individual Sunny Peddle.

I dont see where I have offered any hostility to anyone here. I have offered factual findings of my own backed up and evidenced by a forum sticky.
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sunny pedaal



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"I don't see where I have offered any hostility to anyone here." :

"You do all realise this forum will become very bland if people are only allowed to say how good it is all the time?

, lets break away from saying this is a Gearsluts view

You are a very hostile individual Sunny Peddle

So what are we saying here. Positive and happy posts only re the Andy? In other words a distorted and censored view of the Andy? Surely a better idea is people post what they honestly think?

I posted this on Gearslutz as this forum is very slow (no offence)

I'm an absolute Andy novice.But the waveshaping along with the ridiculously easy way you can over drive everything with minuscule values it is nothing more than ridiculous.

Im quite baffled by your reply. You accuse me of being rude with gearslutz style posts. Not at all. I was being factual. There is nothing rude about me.

I actually owned an Andromeda previously and sold it because I thought it sounded plastic and all the same.

I honestly didn't think you guys would be so protective.

Threads seem to have to go your way or no way at all. "


overall the tone you set, isn't the tone we're used to here, and that has nothing to do with trying to talk about facts. all the time mentioning that makes your opinion not less hostile/ more friendly sounding. besides it's not true that there is some sort of censorship, and repeating it over and over again doesn't make it more true either. if people don't agree on your harsh and overdefinitive language on the a6, doesn't mean that no critical sound is allowed. how strange you must think to come up with something like that . have you read other forumposts at all ?
and sorry i didn't realize you had bought a new a6, i was wrong on that point
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