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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
NMG2 Open Source Editor
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Blue Hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brunov wrote:
I have my doubts...


All I ever got out was gibberish Wink

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Estarriol



Joined: Aug 09, 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Maybe it's more fun to try to design your own dsp algoritms and try them to sound like some of the g2 modules.

I think today there's a much better idea: open modular platform. Get the hardware part done and let anyone with enough skill to code his own stuff. Write your code, upload it to the synth, make a config file for external editor (like you're writing) and you got it working. You get near zero expenses for software development and debuggin, and you will get the hardware sold. Dont know how much it will cost though.

I see people producing hardware all around. Why above said cant happen?
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xav



Joined: Mar 21, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:38 am    Post subject: blind users Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Congratulation for your work, Brunov!
I introduced this forum to a blind incredible keyboard player, Jean-Philippe Rykiel
http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=rikiel&t=5723
Your open source editor is the last chance to give blind users the ability to patch without using the mouse (with pop up menus instead).
I wish somebody could give a try to this opportunity.

All the best
xavier
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brunov



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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Xavier,

I would very much like to try and make such an interface.

I read the thread you posted and if I understand correctly, I should add a menu structure with wich you can access all parts of a patch and make modifications.

Then with Jaws, the menu items can be read in braille.

It shouldn't be too difficult to make, and it will be interesting to see if it's workable!

I think my first try would be to make a tree-like menu structure. So if you start with a patch, the menu item lets you access all functions of a patch: new patch, edit patch for example.

Then when you select edit patch, you can select the voice area or the fx area.

Then when you select the voice area it has one menu item "add module" en all the other menu items are the existing modules.

Then when you select a module, you get the options "parameters", "in connections", "out connections", "change name", ""delete module"

and so on and so on...What do you think?

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brunov



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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, thought about this some more: maybe a large menu tree isn't such a good idea.

I've downloaded Jaws to get an idea how it works.

Maybe a number of "selection" popup menus that you can bring forward with shortcut keys works better.

So for example alt-s will bring the "slot" selection menu, and alt-l the "patch location" menu and so on. I assume shortcut keys are no problem?

Maybe also a "currently selected" popup window that you can bring forward that says what you have currently selected, for example : Currently selected: slot A, location VA, module OSCB, parameter Course.

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xav



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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Waw Brunov... that's great!!!
I read the first mail listening to the radio in my car and missed the result of french president election... so happy to know you could do it, and you are so motivated.
I think that's the way to do it. Jean-Philippe is going to join us very soon to give informations...
Thank you very much for that incredible reactivity.

xavier

PS
does anyone know who is the winner? nobody told me
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
does anyone know who is the winner? nobody told me


Shocked Laughing

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brunov



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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Xav,

Let's hope, disregarding all experiences we had earlier, that your new president will not disappoint you. Wink

In the mean time I've been experimenting with Jaws and the menu-driven interface. I think it will be quite a challenge to make it workable, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

First of all, there must be no graphics in the menu, otherwise Jaws will only tell you that "context menu item is graphics 614" or something like that

So I've made a global setting "Only text menus", that will surpress all graphics in menus.

In the main menu I've added a menu "Select" and a menu "Add".

With the menu "Select" you can select:
a slot
a location
a module
or a parameter of a module

it also shows the selected value for each menu item, so if you go over the menu items, it will tell or show you for example "Select slot, current slot A", or "Select module, current OscB". In case the parameter it also states the current value, so is says "Select parameter, current FreqCourse, value 27".

When you select the menu item "Select module" in the select menu, you get a popup menu with which you can select one of the modules in the current patch location.

So with the select menu you should be able to select anything in a patch but it also tells you the current selection.

Then in the "Add" menu, you have the options to add a module or add a cable.

The "Add module" option also states where you will add the module, so it says for example "Add module to slot A, location VA". The slot and the location are the ones you selected in the "Select" menu.

I'm still thinking about the "Add cable" option, because that one is the most difficult.

The starting point is the currently selected module. So I think there should be a popup menu with wich you can select one of the output connectors of the selected module, then a submenu with which you can select a module that has an valid input connector, and lastly a submenu with which you can select the input connector of this module to which you want to connect.

So the basic idea is that all the steps of patching can be done with menus and submenus, as you suggested earlier. And I think it's also important that the menus should display the current state of the patch or the selection where possible, and the menus should list the items always in the same order.

That way, hopefully, it's possible to make a mental image of the patch.

I'm only experimenting so far, so if you think it's not going the right way, please let me know.

Regards
Bruno


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Jean-Philippe Rykiel



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject:
Subject description: G2 for the Blind
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Dear Brunov,
first, a great thanks to Xavier for reintroducing the subject on this forum.
I must say that I still don't have a G2 to work with, and I hope one will still be available if all this works.
I'm a JAWS user but not a jaws programmer, and certainly not a computer expert. All I can say is that JAWS needs text label to work. It doesn't necessarily mean that there shouldn't be any graphics, as long as these graphics have text legends or labels.
Jaws, it seems, understands every Windows standard objects like menu bars, buttons, combo lists and so on. It is of course also possible to use the modular knobs to do most of the programming which is probably what I will do if I get one. What's really important for me is to be able to do what can only be done on a computer.
I would like to help more, please tell me if I can.
All the best,
Jean-Philippe
brunov wrote:
Hey Xav,

Let's hope, disregarding all experiences we had earlier, that your new president will not disappoint you. :wink:

In the mean time I've been experimenting with Jaws and the menu-driven interface. I think it will be quite a challenge to make it workable, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

First of all, there must be no graphics in the menu, otherwise Jaws will only tell you that "context menu item is graphics 614" or something like that

So I've made a global setting "Only text menus", that will surpress all graphics in menus.

In the main menu I've added a menu "Select" and a menu "Add".

With the menu "Select" you can select:
a slot
a location
a module
or a parameter of a module

it also shows the selected value for each menu item, so if you go over the menu items, it will tell or show you for example "Select slot, current slot A", or "Select module, current OscB". In case the parameter it also states the current value, so is says "Select parameter, current FreqCourse, value 27".

When you select the menu item "Select module" in the select menu, you get a popup menu with which you can select one of the modules in the current patch location.

So with the select menu you should be able to select anything in a patch but it also tells you the current selection.

Then in the "Add" menu, you have the options to add a module or add a cable.

The "Add module" option also states where you will add the module, so it says for example "Add module to slot A, location VA". The slot and the location are the ones you selected in the "Select" menu.

I'm still thinking about the "Add cable" option, because that one is the most difficult.

The starting point is the currently selected module. So I think there should be a popup menu with wich you can select one of the output connectors of the selected module, then a submenu with which you can select a module that has an valid input connector, and lastly a submenu with which you can select the input connector of this module to which you want to connect.

So the basic idea is that all the steps of patching can be done with menus and submenus, as you suggested earlier. And I think it's also important that the menus should display the current state of the patch or the selection where possible, and the menus should list the items always in the same order.

That way, hopefully, it's possible to make a mental image of the patch.

I'm only experimenting so far, so if you think it's not going the right way, please let me know.

Regards
Bruno

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brunov



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Jean-Philippe!

I hope it will be possible to make something you can work with.

The one thing you cannot do with the knobs on the g2-keys is making an actual patch I guess. I only have the g2-engine so I have to do everything with the computer.

I've downloaded Jaws so I can test what Jaws tells me when I work with the editor. Hopefully, soon I will be able to make my first simple patch blindfolded Smile

At least, that would be a signal for myself that I'm on the right track. The real test will be of course that you can work with it. I'm very interested in men-machine interfaces, and making something like this is a real challenge.

I hope you can borrow Xaviers g2, because you will have to be able to test what I've made.

The changes to the user interface are relatively easy to do with the software development tool I use, so maybe in a week or two we will have something that we can test.

Regards
Bruno

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Jean-Philippe Rykiel



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Brunov,
I was wondering if there was a way to test your software without the G2. You could send it to me and I could start looking at it right away. What do you think? Best, JP

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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jean-Philippe Rykiel wrote:
Hey Brunov,
I was wondering if there was a way to test your software without the G2. You could send it to me and I could start looking at it right away. What do you think? Best, JP

Yes, if Bruno’s Editor can save the patch to disk compatible with the G2 Editor, then you can use the free G2 Demo Software to load the patch for a test. Even though the Demo is limited, it should still work well in most cases to test that you can create and modify G2 patches successfully.

Regards,

Varice

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xav



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brunov wrote:
Hey Xav,



it also shows the selected value for each menu item, so if you go over the menu items, it will tell or show you for example "Select slot, current slot A", or "Select module, current OscB". In case the parameter it also states the current value, so is says "Select parameter, current FreqCourse, value 27".


Hello Bruno,
Thank you very much again and congratulations; What I see in your pictures is far better what I imagined. "Select parameter" with the current value is a great idea.
As I remember our tests, when we imagined Jaw was able to do the job with the regular editor, the main problem was the ability to plug. Jaw is able to see objects and values, but not to drag a cable from an output to an input.
I gonna lend my G2 to Jean-Philippe to test your editor.
All the best
xavier
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Jean-Philippe Rykiel



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey now wait a minute! What am I gona do if it works? I tell you I'll have to find me a G2! I'm like "wow", so excited!
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xav



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments_de_musique/308549828.htm?ca=12_s
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brunov



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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jean-Philippe Rykiel wrote:
Hey Brunov,
I was wondering if there was a way to test your software without the G2. You could send it to me and I could start looking at it right away. What do you think? Best, JP


I hadn't thought of that, but yes, you can use the editor "off line" so without a g2 connected. I use that myself a lot to be able to test things when there's no g2 around.

It can also be used without the libusb-win32 driver installed, I made that so people with a failing usb could still upload/download patches using midi. You only get a messagebox then saying "No USB connection" on startup.

Normally the setup procedure is like this:
1. Download the latest version of libusb-win32, and install
2. Attach the libsub-win32 driver as an usb filter driver to the existing clavia usb driver
3. Download the latest nmg2 open source editor "bin" zip file, that's version 0.22 at the moment, from this location: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nmg2editor/files/v0.22/nmg2editor_bin_0.22.zip/download
4. Extract the zip file to a new folder

So maybe we could skip steps 1 and 2 right now, but you could try 3 and 4. It doesn't contain the changes in the user interface yet but at least you can get familiar with the installation procedure and try to get the editor up and running.

On startup you probably get a message from the firewall that the application is trying to get access to a tcp-ip port. That's ok. Next you will het a message that no USB connection can be made, just click ok.

Then you could try some of the menu functions, maybe try and load a patch.

Later on when there's a new version, you only have to repeat steps 3 and 4 and we're ready to do some more testing.

Maybe later on you could try and install the libusb-win32 driver and when you have access to a g2, attach it as a filter driver to the clavia usb driver (which you have to install also of course).

What I would like to know from you is if you have made any special settings on Jaws when you tried it out on the clavia editor or in general. I would like to make the same settings so when you have some suggestions I can better understand what you mean.

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xav



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Bruno,
I'm with my friend Jean-Philippe and we are trying to install your editor on his computer. Can you please give us the download linkfor the libusb pacage you mention in your readme file.
We downloaded the foloing file libusb-win32-bin-1.2.6.0.zip but it does not have an easy installer.
Thanks,
JP&X
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Jean-Philippe Rykiel



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Brunov,
I don't remember having made special settings to jaws but, but I have modified a few settings in Windows XP itself for a more convenient screen layout.
You can find the details of these modifications in the jaws help topic "Using Windows with Jaws/an overview of Windows versions/XP and Jaws.
Hope this will help,
Cheers,

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brunov



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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
Dear Bruno,
I'm with my friend Jean-Philippe and we are trying to install your editor on his computer. Can you please give us the download linkfor the libusb pacage you mention in your readme file.
We downloaded the foloing file libusb-win32-bin-1.2.6.0.zip but it does not have an easy installer.
Thanks,
JP&X


Xavier,

there's als an option to download a snapshot, you can find that one here:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/libusb-win32/files/libusb-win32-snapshots/20110713/

I also wrote some instructions for installing the filter driver, you can find these here : http://sourceforge.net/p/nmg2editor/wiki/Installing%20LibUSB/

Remember, it's important to install it as a filter driver on the existing clavia driver. After installing, you should check that the original clavia editor still works o.k.

Good luck!

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Jean-Philippe Rykiel



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Brunov,
Ok, I downloaded the file but I have questions before I proceed.
1. The only file I found there which looks like an installer is called "libusb-win32-devel-filter-xxx.exe" is it the one I should install?

2. Do I have to install this one first or the NMG2 driver first? In fact, I installed the driver yesterday. Does it matter?

3, will this filter effect my other USB devices in any way?
Thank you very much for your help and interest.
Best,

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brunov



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jean-Philippe,

1.
Yes, run libusb-win32-devel-filter-xxx.exe, you will get the usuall install screens on which you kan keep all the default settings.

On the last screen "Completing the LibUSB-Win32 Setup Wizard" you get the option to "Launch filter installer wizard".

2.
The filter installer wizard will setup the libusb-win32 to function as a filter driver on the clavia usb driver. So you should already have installed the clavia driver (you said you did that yesterday, so thats good).

Maybe you should also turn on the G2 so the clavia driver is active, so when you install the filter driver, you can select the clavia driver out of the list.

On the first screen of the filter installer wizard you should select the first option "Install a device filter". Then push button "Next".

In the second screen you should get the list of usb drivers, select the "Clavia 32-bit Driver", . Then push button "Install".

When all has gone well, the message "libusb-win32 device filter succesfully installed on Claivia 32-bit USB driver..."

The next thing that you should try is to run the original Clavia editor. If all has gone well, you should still be able to use the original Clavia driver.

3. "will this filter effect my other USB devices in any way?" No, it should not.

Let me know how it goes, so I can help where necessary...

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Brunov, You said : "The next thing that you should try is to run the original Clavia editor. If all has gone well, you should still be able to use the original Clavia driver." But I did not install the original editor, only the driver, knowing that I would not be able to use it anyway.
Do I nead it? Best.

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brunov



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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess you don't really need it.

The only thing is that I don't have all the functionality in my editor as the original has, like the patch mutator and the indicators that say how much memory you used and some other things.

But did you succeed in installing the libusb driver?

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't done it yet, I am not sure I can do it today but I'll keap you posted. Thanks
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Brunov.
Here is what I did so far :
1. Successfully installed driver, Clavia editor and Libusb.
2. Started fiddling with Clavia editor, just to see if I could load sounds from previously downloaded banks. Success.
3. Ran your editor. First, got no error message except for a warning from Windows XP's firewall which I denied.
Then, jaws sees two checkboxes, perf mode and online.
Then, I tried and explore the menus a little bit, but once in a menu, I couldn't go much further with JAWS. As an example, I went to the view menu and enterd on editing tools. Then, I think I saw something that said "show cables"I tried clicking on it but it did not reveal anything jaws could read for me.
I don't know how you experimented with jaws, were you using the mouse or the keyboard? That's what blind users usually do, they never touch the mouse in fact.
Anyway, I wasn't able to change something to the sound. Maybe it is because I'm not familiar with the G2's architecture yet.
I think I need a little more clues to get me started.
All the best,

_________________
Jean-Philippe Rykiel, the blind one.
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