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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
16 Step 4017 sequencer?
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Team Toothpaste



Joined: May 06, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: 16 Step 4017 sequencer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello CMOS geniuses, I was wondering if any of you have had any luck with making a 16 step sequencer from 2 4017's? A quick google search seems to suggest that this is not as easy as one might assume. Does the description in the comments of this page (suggesting the use of a 4081) make any sense to anyone?
http://casperelectronics.com/2007/02/27/4017-gate-sequencer/

I can't see how the connections he suggests would keep the AND gates outputting clock pulses for the appropriate intervals.
Suggestions appreciated. I'm sure there's plenty of you here with a much better handle on this than me!
Thanks
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Team Toothpaste



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just had a thought that maybe running the clock to one gate of an AND and a /8 from a 4040 to the other gate then using the output to clock 4017a, and then using the same set up but with an inverter on the 4040 output to clock 4017b - of course this requires 4-5 chips! seems a bit to messy to me.
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are easier ways to get 16 steps out of CMOS than to use a 4017 cascaded. Cascading always needs lots of extra logic to manage the flow.

Easier to use a hex counter and decode the hex to decimal.

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Cynosure
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I thought you can just run the last clock on one 4017 into the clock source on the second one. I read it here:

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/cmos.htm#4017

Is it not that simple?

I plan on doing this soon too, so now I'm worried Sad
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brock



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You need to add one AND gate for every 4017 stage you add. Very simple. See page 6 http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC14017B-D.PDF - you might need to cut and paste the link as the OnSemi site doesn't seem to like external links.
You get 9 steps from the first 4017 and up to 8 from each successive stage, depending where you choose to halt or reset from.
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dowhatnow



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you are going to use a bunch of chips, you might as well use a binary counter and a 4067 multiplexer.
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Team Toothpaste



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks everyone, I'll definitely consider other methods of sequencing, but for the moment I have a few 4017 and I'd like to put them to use so I'm going to try the suggestion from the datasheet that brock posted.

Cynosure - I'll post back my results probably over the weekend and let you know how it goes - let me know if you get anywhere with your project!
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richardc64



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: 16 Step 4017 sequencer? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Baby steps...

Team Toothpaste wrote:
Hello CMOS geniuses, I was wondering if any of you have had any luck with making a 16 step sequencer from 2 4017's? A quick google search seems to suggest that this is not as easy as one might assume. Does the description in the comments of this page (suggesting the use of a 4081) make any sense to anyone?
http://casperelectronics.com/2007/02/27/4017-gate-sequencer/

I can't see how the connections he suggests would keep the AND gates outputting clock pulses for the appropriate intervals.
Suggestions appreciated. I'm sure there's plenty of you here with a much better handle on this than me!
Thanks


First build an 8-step and explore its capabilities before trying to expand a 4017 circuit to 16 steps. The example in the pdf brock posted looks feasible.

That casperelectronics circuit you posted has problems, as you've noticed. You should be looking at the link to the updated design at the top of that page. http://casperelectronics.com/2007/03/19/sequencer-update/
And yeah, that too should use a cmos 4081 and not a ttl 7408.

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hv0190



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What the .pdf suggests definitely works. This is what I came up with in the end!
But Richard is right, start with an 8-step version and refine that one. Then, once you've gained some experience start working on the "Baby 16" sequencer.
And be prepared for a hellish type of wiring job when you work on the 16-step sequencer! Laughing


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Team Toothpaste



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Richard, I hadn't seen that newer link. I have already built an up-to-ten trigger step sequencer from the 4017 with banana jack outputs, i was really hoping to move on to longer sequences. As you say that pdf brock posted looks promising, so I'll give that a go some time in the next few days.

hv0190 - that thing looks awesome, not sure if i misunderstood you but is it based on the schematic from the datasheet?
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hv0190



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Toothpaste,

yes, it's based on the datasheet schematic, it's not a bad idea to try and understand how it works. For a start I'd take a look at this website:
http://www.doctronics.co.uk/4017.htm#sequencing

As far as I can understand it (I'm still a noob), the whole thing works like this:
Once the last output of the first 4017 goes high it enables the EN-pin (13), thus stopping the first 4017; at the same time - through the 4081 AND-gate - it makes the second 4017 start counting (because now the clock signal can come through). Once the last output of the second 4017 goes high it resets the first 4017, so this one starts again at pin 3, while the second 4017 is stopped again as the last output of the first 4017 goes low (thus disconnecting the second 4017 from the clock).

I actually combined this with Fonik's Baby10 ideas to add step/reset possibilities:
http://www.modular.fonik.de/Page22.html
There are still some very occasional glitches that I cannot account for (every now and then it sort of skips the first step, could have to do with the clocking signal or maybe I should use proper LED drivers Shocked ), but basically it works flawlessly.
The big white knob in the middle is simply used to regulate CV output (1V, 2V, 4V, 5V = 1 octave, 2 octaves etc.) and the switches mute the respective step.
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Cynosure
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think I'm just going to use a 4029 instead.
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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richardc64



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

piedwagtail wrote:

Perhaps Richard C64 would like to discuss and elaborate on the intriguing step selection feature and the clock enable inverted clock triggering.


I'd be glad to, once someone translates the translation.

what is this, i don't even

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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Japnglish great, best one.

Run disable then boot from step switch, but how it then run from step. Secret of 4017 here?

R
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richardc64



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The "clock enable inverted clock triggering" isn't unique to the 4017: the 4520 dual binary and 4518 dual bcd counters have an inverter on one input of a gate structure as well. This makes Clock and Enable interchangeable as clock and enable of opposite polarity I'm sure somewhere in the translation Hoshuyama san explains why he did that.

I don't understand what the step selection is supposed to do. Looks impressive, though.

The easily overlooked treasure is the method of getting +/-V from a single-ended source.

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brock



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As the translations are pretty much gibberish, I'm going to guess the inverted clocking is to allow the first 4017 stage to clock the second out of inhibit.

The step selector enables a fast clock that essentially jumps to the selected step so you don't have to manually step through a sequence when initially setting it up. Seems like a lot of work for just that function. I suspect you could use it to sort of skip steps too but the schematic and pictures don't indicate he's doing that.

I hadn't looked at Osamu's site for a long time, he's been working on a lot of things lately.
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6581r4AR



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't tested this myself, but I'm pretty sure this will work. I also don't know how it compares to what is shown on page 6 of that datasheet either. I hope it helps though.


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Benjamin AM



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can anyone take a guess on the values of C2 and R4 in Hoshuyama's schematic? I believe these components are responsible for the power-on reset function. Also, would the pulse circuits connect directly to the 4017 stages?
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brock



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think almost any values will work for C2 and R4. I'd try 1uF and 10K, reset will finish before the internal oscillator clocks.

Yes the pulse circuits connect to the 4017 outputs.
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JRock



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An easy way to get 16 steps out of it would be to run 2 X 4017 chips by sending the trigger pulse into a 4013. Connect Q to the first 4017, and NOT Q to the second 4017. Then merge all the outs. Make sure to connect reset step select switches to BOTH 4017s.

Easy peasy.
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Hkg_phooey



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi my first post here...

I think I've seen discussions on this subject before.

I've only ever made an 8-step 4017 sequencer. However, I think if I do get around to making a 16-step, I will try the method on the last page of this set of instructions.
http://www.clockworkrobot.com/synth/Sequencer_Instructions.pdf

It seems straightforward. Any idea if it will work?
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baudrate



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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hv0190 wrote:
What the .pdf suggests definitely works. This is what I came up with in the end!
But Richard is right, start with an 8-step version and refine that one. Then, once you've gained some experience start working on the "Baby 16" sequencer.
And be prepared for a hellish type of wiring job when you work on the 16-step sequencer! Laughing


@hv0190 What size panel is that and what pots did you use? Thanks!
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baudrate



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

6581r4AR wrote:
I haven't tested this myself, but I'm pretty sure this will work. I also don't know how it compares to what is shown on page 6 of that datasheet either. I hope it helps though.


I just put this together on the breadboard and verified this works!
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Jumawa99



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all..

I try to make the 16 step sequencer based on the schematic from the 4017 datasheet example pdf..

Well, not very successful, unfortunately..The problem is, the sequencer won't loop,,it just goes through one cycle of sequence and then it stop at the first output (Q0) of the first 4017 and stay there forever..

but, whenever i turn it off and on (via the battery), it does a perfect sequence from Q0 to Q15..
but, again,,it will stop on the pin 3 (Q0) of the 4017..

been wandering around on how to get rid of this frustration..

would love to hear someone with solutions..
maybe i just mistaken the wiring,,but i am quite sure it was the right wiring,,

please help

thanks
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