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Fear and loathing in Pennsylvania?!
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cool maybe... but rather more 'red tape' (or should that be 'purple'? Wink Laughing )
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I could only find violet Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Greens are fascists? Sure, we must give that one a beating.

However, a main problem with fascism is that the popular understanding what what fascism actually means or covers is tainted by WW2. And nazism and fascism are both the same and still pretty different of sorts. I can easily see why some will see similarities between 1910s-1930s popular political movements of the new age vein, and current ones. Calling the british strain of the green movement fascists is still wrong. They aren´t there yet and most likely they will never get there. Things are worse in the US. They have a 2 party system and call it democratic. What the heck did they put in the water? And now the both the lefties and the brownshirts are calling for a stronger leadership.. did they forget the US is supposed to be a democracy? Shocked Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's not to be taken literally.

But when I was visiting my folks in Lewes this weekend gone, a woman and her son, from the Lewes Green Party (I knew this because my father knew who they were), were going to each of the neighbours recycling bags in their front gardens checking to see if they had put their garbage out properly. If not, they would write a post-it note and place it on the bag with a serial number so their actions could be recorded (most probably to use against them at a later date).

I'm sorry Stein, but this is totally unacceptable, and borders on Stalinist type totalitarianism (better word?)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doesn´t fly well.. .

Any idea what they think they are really doing and why?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know quite what their objective is apart from intimidation. It's another classic example of how the British sees its society as naughty children who cannot be trusted to think for themselves.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Harsh





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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Quote:
This overpopulation thing is all about misanthropy. Greens posing as humanists.





Laughing Laughing Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Quote:
I think you should be allowed to walk around in winter in your underwear if you wish.


What kind of self described "Marxist" doesn't believe in "the common good"? Natural resources are finite and wasting them is selfish and destructive to future generations.Didn't I at some point hear you say you had kids too?

(And in my example the people in question do it because they live in an apartment where their heat is included in their rent,so they don't see the huge bill that comes from their wasteful ways.They're too stupid to equate that behavior with the inevitable increase in their rent that comes later.)

Oh yeah,I almost forgot: I didn't know how to make the video from the Matrix Purple,can someone fix that for me? Rolling Eyes
(not that some of the points aren't correct,but I don't agree with the whole misanthrope thing.)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now back to frickin' fracking:

There's a different way of doing it that might not be as bad.It hasn't been studied extensively enough,but it shows promise.And it would eliminate the costs of disposing of the toxic fracking fluids that do surface.

http://www.dailyyonder.com/getting-gas-without-hazards/2011/11/07/3590

http://www.gasfrac.com/gasfrac_comparison.aspx

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pyrosonic wrote:
...Oh yeah,I almost forgot: I didn't know how to make the video from the Matrix Purple,can someone fix that for me? Rolling Eyes
(not that some of the points aren't correct,but I don't agree with the whole misanthrope thing.)

Video fixed, kind of, if you don't mind the edit Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pyrosonic wrote:
v-un-v wrote:
Quote:
I think you should be allowed to walk around in winter in your underwear if you wish.


What kind of self described "Marxist" doesn't believe in "the common good"?


It's all down to how one describes or interprets the term, "the common good". Are you coming from a humanist or an environmentalist perspective? I would argue that there are far too many environmentalists who claim they are Marxists, but then have rather misanthropic opinions.

pyrosonic wrote:
Natural resources are finite and wasting them is selfish and destructive to future generations.Didn't I at some point hear you say you had kids too?


This word 'finite' is thrown around a lot. Did you know that 400 years ago, during Elizabethan times we were threatened "Peak Wood"?!

arrow http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2010/08/cpt_20100809_1618.mp3 

Of course man then found other ways of producing fire, because man has always been resourceful. We learnt 60 years ago how to make electricity out of an abundant element known as Thorium, but because of the arms race, and more importantly, rebuilding a burnt out world after WW2. We chose to use Uranium- which was useful to superpowers because a big nasty bomb could be made from it (unfortunately). There is masses of thorium- especially in Norway, yet we only need a small amount of it to produce electricity. The waste can also be reintroduced into the reactor after processing, making thorium an extremely clean material for energy production.

pyrosonic wrote:
(And in my example the people in question do it because they live in an apartment where their heat is included in their rent,so they don't see the huge bill that comes from their wasteful ways. They're too stupid to equate that behavior with the inevitable increase in their rent that comes later.)


"Stupid"? Another term that gets branded around a lot. Sad Stupid as a descriptive word is a bleak reminder of how little people really value fellow human beings. I'm sitting here having a conversation with you, and okay, I don't feel that comfortable, but we're having a debate, and that's what's important, do you not think? Am I 'stupid' because I have an opposing opinion to you? Of course not! I think it is unwise to label people as 'stupid' because their ideas don't fit in with yours. I mean for example, my daughter suffers from fairly bad ezema, and occasionally she doesn't like to wear clothes around the house. If she's cold I'll put the heating up. I know that's an extreme case, but I really don't see the problem with turning the heating up if you need or want it. And what about the elderly and the sick? And how do you define elderly or sick?

pyrosonic wrote:
Oh yeah,I almost forgot: I didn't know how to make the video from the Matrix Purple,can someone fix that for me? Rolling Eyes
(not that some of the points aren't correct,but I don't agree with the whole misanthrope thing.)


I'm not quite with you on this last bit. But there are many people who choose to throw around the "overpopulation" word, and they say they are doing it for fellow human beings. But are they really? When words like 'stupid' are branded around, it doesn't bode very well does it? You can increase peoples intelligence and understanding through debate. Not giving up on them.

I think the bottom line is that there is an element of risk with anything we do. We shouldn't though simply walk away because that risk is hazardous.

Here's Prof Jim Khalili's Horizon programme for an argument for nuclear power (do listen to the mp3 I posted too). Note the work some scientists are doing to rid of the nuclear waste produced by current uranium-based power stations- as waste is one of the most commonly discussed topics.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread



Adam Curtis wrote:
"It's like living in the mind of a depressed hippy"


Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Things are worse in the US. They have a 2 party system and call it democratic. What the heck they did put in the water? And now the both the lefties and the brownshirts are calling for a stronger leadership.. did they forget the US is supposed to be a democracy? Shocked Rolling Eyes


I know, right? I'm embarrassed to shit to be an American in modern America. On paper, this is not a two-party system. It's an open-party system. On paper, this is not a Christian nation. It's a religious haven for those escaping persecution. On paper, we can tell the cops to get lost unless they have a warrant and reasonable cause, but now they'll just beat you up if you don't shut up. On paper, we can gather in any kind of group for any reason in any public place, but the cops will shoot you with rubber bullets if you do that - even if you dress in brown robes and chant Gregorian.

We really only still live here for one reason: we have family here, and that's important enough to put up with the political system of terrorism passing for government.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You shouldn't be embarrassed. America is a great country. I'd love to be living in the States (even dodging rubber bullets! Wink )
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

It's all down to how one describes or interprets the term, "the common good". Are you coming from a humanist or an environmentalist perspective?


It should be pretty clear when I said "future generations" and mentioned that you have kids that I wasn't talking about racoons.I really can't agree with your accusations of misanthropy being the motivation for many environmentalists.(I'm sure there are a handful,because it takes all kinds,but it's a small minority)I'm wondering if you read Robert Heinlein because that stuff is right out of the "Notebooks of Lazarus Long"


Quote:
Am I 'stupid' because I have an opposing opinion to you?


Of course not! Reread the sentence.I was talking specifically about their inability to see that their heat isn't free and if they abuse it the landlord will be forced to raise the rent because it cuts into his or her profits.
And your daughter and sick or old folks are different examples.I'm not proposing that there be preset thermostats with locks on them.That's precisely what they did at work because these same "stupid" people kept turning up the heat after being told by management not to.Now they complain bitterly all winter expecting the boss to pay to heat a 40,000 sq.Ft. warehouse with a 40 ft. ceiling to 74 degrees F. (Believe me there isn't a warmer warehouse anywhere in the northern hemisphere)
Maybe "stupid" is an unfortunate choice of words,but,frankly,I don't think so.
You ought to know by now that I'm a crass S.O.B. Wink

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here Tom.

I don't have time to watch any of those vids today,maybe tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

pyrosonic wrote:

You ought to know by now that I'm a crass S.O.B. Wink


I'm very pleased that you a crass SOB- I've been called stuff like this in the past too. But unfortunately it seems that the majority of people who use slander like that (against us), well when it boils down to it, don't really want to engage in debate any longer, which is a shame.

I really hope you watch those videos. The last well is pretty sarcastic and very funny (imo)

Here's another (but more serious one- note the lack of purple! Wink ). This one is about the Fairtrade organisation (who I think are the opposite- 'unfair'). This video raises some really interesting points about who alternative corporations such as Fairtrade and Greenpeace use PR techniques to manipulate us into thinking that by dealing with them, we are getting a 'much better deal', which is simply nonsense.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

With all due respect, using names like misanthrope, Stalinist, stupid, etc., only makes a discussion tedious and disrespectful. Respect is one of the primary principles of our community as indicated in the conditions of use document of electro-music.com.

I request that no matter how angry, frustrated, or exasperated we become, we keep interactions between ourselves here on this forum at the highest level we can.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fight the power.

Occupy.


There is no good way to frak. Sorry. Fuck me, but I would prefer my progeny live in a world that has potable water.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Fight the power.

Occupy.


The only problem with 'occupy' is I don't understand for what reason? Who are the occupiers occupying against? What's more is that I'm hearing more and more evidence of strong anti-semite (un)reasoning withing the occupy movement. That I find, especially as both my children attend Britain's only state-run Jewish primary school, rather disturbing. Rolling Eyes


Scott Stites wrote:
There is no good way to frak. Sorry. Fuck me, but I would prefer my progeny live in a world that has potable water.


Well yes, but there is no really great way to mine either. And since Fukashima (yes I'm still Thorium-positive!) many more have died in coal ming incidents around the world- including a dozen or so in Britain. There's no two ways about it, mining comes with some serious problems- most of which can be remedied by attention to safety through proper legislation, but when you have hardcore environmentalist groups opposing these new mining methods, it's hardly surprising that government won't change the law, because they're so frighteningly vacuous, they won't change the law, because they're in the white-house or parliament on a wing and a prayer anyway, and they're shit-scared about not getting re-elected! So essentially politicians will do anything to lick the arses of the voting populate.

Scott, do you live in an area where your drinking water is liable to exploding? From my understanding from watching the vids that Stein posted is that it explodes for one reason alone- because methane was already present in the water supply anyway, and it's a few people trying to capitalise from the miners who have moved into the area? And who can blame them? You got those corn farmers who are now multi-millionaires, because they've been sitting on a 'gold(gas)mine'!

Anyway I thought that it was only a few years back that you were depressed that people made you feel guilty about driving your car in the middle of Kansas? A tank of petrol, which usually lasts 3 to 4 weeks costs us about £80! We simply don't have a budget anymore that allows our family to go on holiday once a year.

Of course I may have just got the wrong end of the stick....again? Laughing

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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Occupy has changed the conversation in this country.

Oil/natural gas are not essential for human survival. Water is.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Occupy has changed the conversation in this country.


Well that can only be a good thing I suppose. At least you've got the support of Ben and Jerry's! Wink

http://www.benjerry.com/activism/occupy-movement/

So now you can smash those corporate bastards while downing your favourite corporate ice cream- all with a clear conscience! Rolling Eyes Laughing


Scott Stites wrote:
Oil/natural gas are not essential for human survival. Water is.


This is true, but heck it's (oil/gas) also stopped an awful lot of people from freezing to death?! Also oil has helped mould (pardon the pun Embarassed ) our entire planet through a whole load of tools that have made it far easier to get on if we didn't have them. Idea

As for water, in some parts of the world (Germany?) people pay good money for water that tastes like farts. In france there is (was?) a place people took a pilgrimage to in order to sniff gas for health reasons, and in parts of America it is believed that sniffing gas can produce powerful hallucinogenic experiences akin to cannabis called "Jenkem"! Shocked

arrow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkem

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Scott Stites
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Joined: Dec 23, 2005
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Location: Mount Hope, KS USA
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Water is essential. There's no getting around that, no matter how one thinks of staying warm or the methods of staying warm. You can be as warm or as industrial as you choose, but, without potable water, you are dead.

BTW, you have no one to blame for my worldview but you and Rosie. I say this as stupidly as I imply it. I love Tram as much as I fear history.



Obviously, Tram did not lead me to where I am, but I love you and Rosie for this nonetheless.

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