electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
4051 ANY gate, more fun than a 4051 oscillator.
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 2 of 3 [52 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
attdestroyers



Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Malvern, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
Banjo wrote:
Actually, the binary switches determine which decade, and the direction of the signal flow determine whether it is British, or American.

Thank you Joe for your explanations. One more question. What are your switches connected to?

The center of the sun. Laughing Which switches?


I think he's refering to the switches in your video of "the device." I was actually wondering the same thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think he was referring to more 60s British rock, this time being Pink Floyd with "Set The Controls For the Heart of the Sun" Smile

But seriously, yeah, I was wondering about what the switches did too...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah the three little toggle switches in the corner? They change the gate configuration, however it is allways changing because of the LFOs, the switches just change which Y input the LFOs go to.
With them all set "up" the LFOs are connected to 1,2 and 4, giving the effect of ring modulation. Each can be switched between a different Y input, between 1 and 6, I remember I didn't use 0 and 7 but I don't know which switch switches to which Y input but I did put some thought into it so that each switch affected one oscillator more than the others.

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I finally got to build this! After a week of slogging through my "list of circuits" to try, all of which failed or were disappointing, this circuit finally got to the top of the list, and it's quite CRAZY & FUN! Thanks for sharing this JingleJoe!

Since I'm still digging Cynosure's 4006+4040 triangle waveshaper [ http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-52443.html ] and still had it built on another breadboard, I ran the output of the 4051 ANY through it, and I like it.

I put three 1-minute snippets on my soundcloud, attempting to get some different sounds than what JingleJoe has shared...

CMOSnippet 027: Skistulogous by JamesSchid

CMOSnippet 028: Otilibous by JamesSchid

CMOSnippet 029: Podisrannious by JamesSchid

[ http://soundcloud.com/jamesschid if those inline players don't work.]

[Edit: corrected JingleJoe's username, sorry!]

Last edited by RingMad on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm very glad you like the results Very Happy I am allways happy to hear that someone likes my circuits Smile
However two things:
My username is just JingleJoe, not jingler Razz
Secondly, I can't listen to that first one, I have a headache and it is too high pitched so it is negatively lunetting my brain Sad
Nevertheless, some good sounds there Smile

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe: ooops, sorry... my brain got crosswired for a moment with PHOBoS's Jingler box based on your other circuit.

I can't wait to get off work today and try a few more things with this one.

Last edited by RingMad on Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
forshee



Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Posts: 46
Location: Hopkins, MN

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I love LUTs been thinking of writing this post for ages. If the switches switch between V+ and an input with a tie down you can get just about anything. Been working on a 5U version of this for some time lots of possibilities. Add some jk flip flops and you should be able to do just about anything. Make a few thousand of those and you've got an FPGA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Banjo



Joined: Sep 27, 2009
Posts: 59
Location: Atlantic County, N.J. USA

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry I haven't replied, but life gets in the way sometimes. I figured that the switches had something to do with the gates. I will keep an eye on this thread for inspiration when its time to work with the 4051 again. For now, I am trying to figure out my next project. I decided to try to do it in Reaktor first to work out the kinks. It's much better to spend an hour or two tweekng and getting it functional, than spending several hours soldering and finding out that it does not work.

Its time to build a mixer/signal router/control panel. I want to send some of the audio from my DIY synth into Reaktor , and play with it there. At least it gives me a good excuse to finally go through all of the tutorials on the program.

I will have to label one of the panels or knobs, the heart of the sun!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: San Antonio, Tx, USA
Audio files: 258

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was listening to a rock and roll playlist when i encountered this thread again (after a few days hiatus in second life), and being lazy like i am i decided to just play the lunettas simultaneously with the rock. Success! Listen to "Another one Bites the Dust" by Queen along with RingMad's samples - good combination!

Which brings up an important point in listening. A lot of what we create with Lunettas are sort of missing something. Let's face facts: it is well known that Lunettas usually are way out there big time! So it only makes sense to comingle them with other music. Other new music, other conventional music, other Beethoven, whatever!

Give it a try - you'll like it!

Les

_________________
"Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the same vein as inventors suggestion there; Lunettas will be the backing in my future band, but not the core of the music. Smile
I'm modifying an old device which never sold with a 4051 ANY gate today, results coming soon!

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikmo



Joined: Dec 01, 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Copenhagen - Denmark

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This device has immediately been propagated to a high place on my "modules to build list"

If i understand it right, you have 3 inputs (the LFO's) on the "Y side", the toggle switches each switch one LFO between 2 different Y inputs - right ?

Do you have pull down / up resistors on the Y inputs the LFO's are connected to ?

Have you pulled the 0 and 7 Y inputs high or low or just left them floating?

_________________
Stay Cool
Mikael
http://www.mikmo.dk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor posted a nice clear schematic for this circuit over in his boolean sequencer thread... http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-41367.html ( look for "BS LUT 1.jpg")

But yesterday in playing around with it, I have some questions, which I was having trouble deciding if I should post here or in that thread. So here goes:

1. What purpose do the 10K resistors serve going into the DIP switch?
2. Is there any danger if one has a switch open (i.e. a logic 1 is flowing through it) and a squarewave going into the same line?
3. If I don't use any oscillators on the Y pins, and just open a few switches, it seems almost nothing gets through... i.e. I only faintly hear any audio from my A,B,C inputs coming through. As soon as I plug an oscillator into at least one Y pin, then I get something. [I admit I didn't sit down yet and figure out the particular truth table, which I suspect might have something to do with it]

James.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mikmo



Joined: Dec 01, 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Copenhagen - Denmark

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My guess is that the 10K resistor is there to limit current running into the 4051 x inputs.
_________________
Stay Cool
Mikael
http://www.mikmo.dk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: San Antonio, Tx, USA
Audio files: 258

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RingMad, the 10k resistors are the pull-up resistors, while the 100k resistors are pull-down. When the switch is in the open position the 100k resistor pulls the input down to ground, and when the seitch is closed a voltage divider between the 100k and the 10k forms, giving us appoximately 90% of Vdd.

This arrangement is one way to accomplish the state switching when you only have one spst switch (eight of those on an 8-DIP package). The only problem here is that if the mux is an analog mux, which i believe this one is, then the output impedance is 100k for logic zero and about 9k for logic one.

That would affect the aggregation of the signals into a stim voltage so buffering is desired. I just put an additional 100k resistor at the output for now since there is no room on the board for a buffer, but I'm thinking I need a 5VDC regulator anyway, so i might reduce the board to only 3 circuits and add the buffers. Better save than sorry.

Les

p.s. we now bring you back to your regularly scheduled thread!

_________________
"Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry to derail this thread with more newbie-type questions, but perhaps the info might be useful to others.

Yes, the datasheet says the 4051 is analog. I don't see anything about the output impedance.

What do you mean by "stim voltage"? As for buffering, you mean at the output? This 100k resistor at the output, that's inline or to ground?

I figured out part of my question #3 above... the DIP switches alone do nothing if the output of the 4051 is connected to Cynosure's waveshaper circuit I was using. If I take my output directly from the 4051, they work fine. This is sad... I really like the waveshaper. I don't understand why having it there is a problem.

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 5978
Location: San Antonio, Tx, USA
Audio files: 258

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RingMad wrote:
Sorry to derail this thread with more newbie-type questions, but perhaps the info might be useful to others.

Yes, the datasheet says the 4051 is analog. I don't see anything about the output impedance.

What do you mean by "stim voltage"? As for buffering, you mean at the output? This 100k resistor at the output, that's inline or to ground?

I figured out part of my question #3 above... the DIP switches alone do nothing if the output of the 4051 is connected to Cynosure's waveshaper circuit I was using. If I take my output directly from the 4051, they work fine. This is sad... I really like the waveshaper. I don't understand why having it there is a problem.

James


RingMad, the answer to your conundrum and mine as well is buffering. Since the part is analog, what it has internally is something known as a pass gate made of two transistors, a P transistor and an N transistor with opposite values applied. Sized correctly, these become a nearly ideal analog switch. That means that whatever impedance is presented to the input appears at the output.

In this case we are applying an input impedance of either 100k (to ground) or 9k (to Vdd), so that is what appears at the output. I don't know what you are wiring to this output, but it will affect the voltage division at the input depending on what it is. As always, remember to consider the whole circuit. Do not assume that an unbuffered output is not affected by it's load. Here y ou have connected something that is reaching back through the analog switch and affecting the input circuitry, and therefore the output value. With buffering, however, this is not an issue.

As for the stim voltage, my Boolean sequencer is designed to drive the inputs of a Karplus Strong board which has a stim pulse, that is all. I hope that explanation helped, and please ask again if you have any more questions.

Les

_________________
"Let's make noise for peace." - Kijjaz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Indeed, buffering fixed the problem, thanks Les!

And, I finally figured out what you meant by "stim voltage"... stimulation!

Still having lots of fun with this circuit, making several recordings. Probably will put more on my soundcloud soon. Definitely this guy will be part of my suitcase Lunetta. And maybe even a box to itself.

James.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I feel the need to mention, as it is relevant to some of your queries chaps, that I seem to recall that the resistance of the Y inputs to X were stated on the datasheet and changed a little for different supply voltages. I think they were about 300 ohms in general but check the datasheets, I may be wrong.

Ringmad, to elaborate on your 3 earlier questions, the 4051 is like switches, if nothing is connected it's literally like having a bit of wire that goes nowhere Smile You need to add a pull down/up resistor or some kind of voltage. Remember also that logic 1 is acctually a voltage and connecting it directly to another one would do strange and possibly explodey things, I would advise you mix them passively through 100k resistors or through a gate; e.g. a diode OR gate.

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RingMad



Joined: Jan 15, 2011
Posts: 219
Location: Montreal, Canada
Audio files: 2

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, nothing's exploded yet, except the number of recordings I made using this ANY gate (and usually going through Cynosure's triangle waveshaper)! I think it's up to 24 now, which is the most I've done for any Lunetta module.

I've selected and edited some of the best and thus there are 5 new CMOSnippets on my soundcloud if anyone cares to listen... http://soundcloud.com/jamesschid

Thanks muchly again JingleJoe!

James
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

They all sound great Very Happy I could hear my ANY gate in a few of them Wink Carry on the good work, I'll say it again, I am always happy to provide weird sound circuits Wink
_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
Posts: 1645
Location: Moon Base
Audio files: 332

PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm currently turning a toy keyboard into a synth And I need to mix two audio signals together.
Because they're squares I can mix them with logic instead of just using a standard resistor mixer.
So I want an XOR/OR/AND mixer selectable with a switch and using a mux for this seems to me the
easiest way. The first version I drew up used a double 3 pole switch. but I got it down to just a
single toggle switch with center position. I remembered jinglejoe's ANY gate also used a mux allthough
I wasn't sure if it would be the same configuration. So I took a look at it and it is indeed a similar
setup Very Happy

This version uses a CD4052 instead of a CD4051 since I only have 2 signals. I used the other half to
make the equivalent of a (non-inverting) summing mixer with a gain of 0.5. But I'm not sure yet if I
will do this in the definite version. You could make a double digital version and then you don't need
the opamps and could use some logic gates to buffer the signal . If you do use opamps you don't have to
power them with -/+ 12V, but you can use the same voltage you use for the CD4052.


XOA-Mixer.gif
 Description:
Xor/Or/And + analog mixer with a CD4052
 Filesize:  28.59 KB
 Viewed:  57 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

XOA-Mixer.gif



_________________
"My perf, it's full of holes!"
http://phobos.000space.com/ http://www.acidtrash.com/ Stickney Synthyards
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
efabric



Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Caen, France

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I feel like you're feeding the beast the wrong way...
Isn't the 4051 a digitally controlled switch ?

If you feed Y inputs with eight tuned oscillators like this :
Y0 : C
Y1 : D
Y2 : E
Y3 : F
Y4 : G
Y5 : A
Y6 : B
Y7 : Octave C, or no note at all (ground)
(of any combination of eight loved vintage 60's bands, 8 tape tracks, etc.)

And your A, B, and C inputs with LFOs,

You can collect at output X a random melody generator, or random cut playlist, or track selector...

If you feed A, B, and C with audio frequencies, your multiplexor is too much out of control, and displays only an audio fragment of a lfo...

_________________
My Scoopit DIY Synths and Schematics curation
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 876
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

efrabic, you have missed the point completely.
go back, read everything again.

Phobos, you have not missed the point at all, you have harnessed the very core of the idea.

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
efabric



Joined: Jan 05, 2012
Posts: 19
Location: Caen, France

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think I missed the point. Perhaps only the use and effect of your three switches ?
CMOSnippet 028: Otilibous by JamesSchid illustrates what I said. I haven't heard it before cause internet restrictions.
No need to read everything twice.

Another Idea : If you connect Y points with a packed resistor array , the X output can also send a random (or digitally controlled) Control Voltage to feed another VCO...
Resistor arrays contains matched resistors, simple to solder in parallel and easy to find in electronics garbadge...

_________________
My Scoopit DIY Synths and Schematics curation
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Draal



Joined: May 18, 2010
Posts: 304
Location: Oak Park, IL
Audio files: 5

PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was going through my parts drawer (very untidy at the moment) and I found a few spare 4051's and 4052's. Now I have something cool to do with them that I wasn't expecting... Cool

thanks JingleJoe and PHOboS

_________________
Zontar Prevails!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 2 of 3 [52 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use