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 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
Man vs. Machine or ManMachine?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Man vs. Machine or ManMachine? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Current technology is capable of both generating notes and generating sounds, just like the person behind it is.

This means your synths could play music composed by you or you could play music composed (or generated) by the computer or you could have any number of hybrid forms in between. You might call those jams.

Where are *you* on this scale? Do you find yourself fighting the technology for controll or do you feel more like you are coöperating with it?


This is an interesting subject.
In academic circles, breaking the code of music has been one important motivation for automatic composition systems. As far as I know, we aren´t´quite there yet.. but there are systems that can mimic, or compose in the style of certain classical composers.

That said, the whole wonderful world of noodles opens up certain possibilities.

We have discussed "what is music" and I guess we will pick up on that one later. Certain threads will never die. I propose the idea that all organised systems of sound that we perceive as music must have qualities that we associate with music. What we hear as music is music.
Music created by machines alone will then be no less human than music createad by man.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

at the dawn of MIDI there were a number of algorithmic composition applications. I remember (because I used them):
Jam Factory, M and RealTime by Intelligent Music
Laurie Spiegel's Music Mouse
KCS Omega, Tunesmith and MidiDraw by Dr.T's software
many of them for Atari computer:
arrow http://tamw.atari-users.net/timidi.htm
arrow http://www.myatari.net/issues/jan2001/music.htm
only a few survive nowadays:
M is available from Cycling'74 for MacOSX:
arrow http://www.cycling74.com/products/m.html

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like computer generated music. Algorithms have been used by composers for hundreds of years. Download some of Chopin's piano music and look at it in piano roll format. You'll see immediately that he comes up with fancy arpeggios and transposes them sequencially note for note. Unless you are a wizard at conventional music notation, it's hard to see this. In piano roll notation each half step gets the same spacing so its easy to see.

I have no problems with machine made music. The value judgement is immaterial to me because a man writes the program. Whats the difference if a composer who can't sing worth beans writes on a piece of paper a beautiful song for an excellent singer. A composer who uses programming to write music is no different.

I wrote my own computer language for music compostion in the early 80's but I abandoned this effort when Tim Thompson released KeyKit (then called KeyNote). It's a neat perfect language for procedural language description of music.

I like the noodles that Jan, Ian, and other have posted here on the forum. Some are quite beautiful. It's an art form I haven't taken to writing myself, but I really appreciate their efforts.

I like to improvise electronic music. I'd love to seen noodles designed with interactive controls, so a performer could add that highest level of musicial control. I would consider this a step beyond conducting.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with mosc. At this point in time there really isn't any machine generated music. It's all created by people it's just that we tend to ascribe personality attributes to computers and perceive them as creating/making when really they are just functioning.

Struggling with the tools is as ancient as music itself. Mastery is when there is no difference between the thought and the action but for the rest of us, playing music is a constant struggle to get our tools to make what we want them to make.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps purely algorithmic music has indeed gone out of fashion lately but I think this is a great era to work on the border between pure human and pure algorithem. I do think that the humble arpegiator is quite "hip" again and advanced arpegiators with their options for paternes and randomness are ina way on the border of algorithmic music already, or so I feel. Today´s instruments take this way further, Korg isn´t too open about it but if I understand correctly the Karma is supposed to do a lot of math on it´s input before outputting sound.

I myself will often use the Nord Modular´s lfo´s, sequencers and so on to create paterns with unusual grooves taht I can´t get right in a normal sequencer and that can also be morphed. After creating those I might controll them from a midi keyboard or I might sequence them from Live.

At that point my little "algorithem" becomes a part of the instrument in my perception and will be sequenced in a relatively normal way while generating much more musically complex output then I´d have time to write normally. It becomes enough to define the micro paterns so we can deal with the composition on a macro scale.

Even if there´s not that much "pure" algoritmic music around, I think this style is now gaining popularity, particularly within IDM circles where it´s relatively common to write one´s own tools in languages like Super Collider. Ready made vst plugins like Supertrigger that use a lot of randomness, then alow the user to compose using the probability settings instead of the actual data used are another example. I gatther Supertrigger is quite popular at the moment.

So, how do you guys use these concepts in your own music?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been contemplating the rammifications of adding a sound library to something like this: http://devolab.cse.msu.edu/software/

have them generate sound then feed it back into the system as a seed for selecting random instructions and then control environmental pressures realtime.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds interesting. What have your contemplations come to?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Sounds interesting. What have your contemplations come to?

contemplation is aimless Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph is quite right.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder what people mean by the term 'algorithmic music'?

I've started to use Cakewalk's programming language to automate compositional chores. For example, I could write a function to change a section in say, C major, to say, E melodic minor, or whatever. Beyond the point where I decide to include this transformation, this is not a compositional process, it's merely an exercise of moving notes around according to some plan. I feel that the fact I can predict the outcome is the distinction between composition and furniture shifting.

If I applied some process that introduced random elements, this would imply a new compositional technique. I am sharing the design of the finished piece with this process. This is what I personally would term algorithmic composition, as opposed to applying some macro to speed up getting to a point I would still be able to reach through other means.

Although this does open an interesting point. If I used an arpeggiator I was unfamiliar with, I would be unable to predict the outcome and thus I would term this algorithmic composition. However, if I understood the way the arpeggiator worked, using it would not be algorithmic, since I could produce the exact same outcome the long way round if I chose.

Or perhaps one should only term it algorithmic music when one designs the algorithmic process oneself?

It is possible that I am confusing algorithmic with aleatoric. Perhaps more on this later.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think your thoughts and additude are very interesting but I do think there is some confusion on what "algoritmic" means. I would define it as "being based on rules" and a algorithem as "a set of rules". Perhaps that´s a little broad.

What you are talking about is closer to the use of randomness which may well be a part of a algorithem but need not be. However, you place the emphasis on elements unpredictable to you, instead of unpredicable in general. I think this is quite interesting and I feel it touches on some fundamental issues with the use of randomness in composition.

One path your post send me on was that you are talking about algorithems being unpredictable. I think they can be unpredictable in many ways, for example a algorithem might be quite complex and so you could perhaps emulate it´s task in your head but it would go slowly. Perhaps to many your "chord changer" would be like that. THis means that for algorithems running in real time the tempo of the track might very well be a fundamental aspect as that might determine wether a composer is able to "keep up" and predict the next value or outcome.

Anybody want to try and get this reasoning a little further?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aleatoric.

This was one of the words I stumbled over recently (searching for statistical properties of music). Other words were algorihmic, generative and random.

It seems to depend on the composer's spefic process what word is used (my word is "noodle"). All seem to have in common that a certain process is used that shoud in a mechanical (algoritmic) way result in a composition. Such a process can incorporate random of course (f.i. rolling dice for selecting snippets of music).

I think wikipedia had some interesting topics on this (try aleatoric).

There were also signs that the mechanical proces, once defined, sometimes was not too strictly observed by all composers - and indeed why should one be a slave of the process.

In the Beth Anderson interview on this site some interesting things were said about processes as well (see http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-1529.html ), she used the word coding for one the processes used.

Jan.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It all depends..

A vital part of the history of algorithmic music is randomness, but you must keep in mind that randomness is not always random.. uh.. well.. we will look into that later..

Algorithmic music kinda happened when we still had modernism around. One part of modernism ( in music ) was to explore modernity ( in the sense of possibilities and limits ). At that time we already had orchestral scores with a huge emphasis on improvisation. The composer would scribble something down and the musicians were supposed to like follow the amplitudes or something. Some of this music sounds without direction today, and some is pretty good. 20 years of this led to innovations in orchestral timbres and you could suddenly talk about a tradition of sorts.

Algorithmic music is what Kassen says, rule based generation of music. It can be a completely strict score or it can have a lot of "random" elements. fact is, we already had this already but the algorithmic machine was the composer. I cannot quite remember the piece, I reckon Howard knows it.. it is a standard.. it is a large chamber piece where the score sheets are shuffled together in a huge heap and the musucianns will draw their parts ... an attempt at randomness.. or something like that.

By the mid 60s one direction in music psychology and composition was the "composing machine"... a generator of music. Algorithmic music could be music that was programmed to behave with a certain randomness but you would have interobject rules that could control harmony and rythm.

"Improvising machines" were built too, programs that would do its work on existing music based on rules and one possible angle would be to test sets of rules in order to find what kept an existing piece of music together. There are all sorts of takes on this.

When the 70s started, the modular synth and the moog style analog sequencer was one way to explore algorithmic music. Sureley less advanced than true computer music, but it found its use. Some discovered that you could have the sequencer have a musical behaviour.. as in a pattern of some sort and you could tweak this while performing. I still remember the term algorithmic music used about TD at the time of Ricochet and Phaedra. The well known arpeggio generator is also a take on music gestures. Personally I wouldn´t say TD ever truly used algorithmic methods, but what do I know.


A little later on, randomness could indeed be smart to use if you could control border values.. like for programming long gestures for modulation.. you would play whatever.. but the modulation would follow semi random patterns.

The biggest success of algorithmic music would probably be the Roland performance keyboards. You choose like Polka or Bossa Nova, play a tune and the instrument tries to follow.

Shocked

Today the term algorithmic music doesn´t really tell much about the actual music. It doesn´t say anything sensible about the technology applied or the compositional methods or the end result.
It is easy to think algorithmic music is ONE field, but it simply isn´t. However many of the tools that "serious" composers are using will be the same, and this means you kinda have a field anyway.. technologywise.

Hmm.. another thing here is the understanding of the term randomness. Some music that possibly sounds extremely random might in fact be completely rule based with no room for truly random events.

Say you construct a patch that first builds very complex oscillator waveforms. The waveforms are then treated using logic gates and stuff to build musical events. You might build in a timer and event loops/feedback and stuff. Every time this machine runs it will sound different, but the actual music is constructed 100% rule based. The patch does this with no random functions. The resulting music might be damned close to noise. is this randomness? Not really.. but it can be argued.
An improvising machine can start of on random seeds but do its stuff like Mozart sitting on the face of Kurt Weill. The methods applied could be truly random with a compositional/imrpovising engine on top. It wouldn´t sound random, but is it random still? What do you think?

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dmosc



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a GREAT GREAT use and need for this type of music creation in video games. You have events occuring dynamically that need different, yet simply backround emotional changes. I'll elaborate

Currently, You'll have a "walking around track" and a "fight" track. You play the walking around track until a monster comes. Boom, stops and goes to fight music. This actually works well, what doesn't work well is going back. It's just as sudden! They currently solve this with "Dead air" at the beginning of the track.

What is needed is autogenerated mood music that can be adusted "+5 anger" or "+5 drama" and back programatically.

Video games are often critisized for un-original music. Wouldn't this be something spectacular?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Elektro, you are very right, of cource, with your comment on randomness and rules. I think this is in fact the core of my "tempo" note. Anyway, within the nord modular (or any system wuth a input, realy) you can get real, pure randomness. There are risistors in the external inputs and those will have some therman noise. you could amp that up and use it as a seed. It´s real, honest noise, down to the quantum level.

There are specialised devices using a special led that can emit a single photon and a "one way looking glass", those devices can be used to create true, controlable, quantum randomness on a bit level. conceivably they could be included in synths....

One thought I had while typing my previous post was the use of randomness in religious music. One definition of true randomness is that "only God knows the next value", I actually encountered that one in multiple syntiffic texts. This leads to some very interesting questions on algorithmic religious music. Sadly I´m not aware of any such music but if it does exist the poor composer must be torn with questions!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dmosc, you are not the only one to toy with that idea....

To be honest I don´t know where the idea that games have boring music comes from, many games, especially rpg´s from the 16 bit days have very memorable scores.

If you are at all interested int he interation between music and games I *urge* you to go out *right now* and rent/buy/borow a playstation 2 and play the game called "REZ". REZ is a work of art, even if the soundtrack is on the clubby side of decent techno. Trust me, rent it, it´ll change your look at what can be done.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Urrmm.... could somebody explain this term 'noodle' to me?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dovdimus Prime wrote:
Urrmm.... could somebody explain this term 'noodle' to me?

1-a food paste made with egg and shaped typically in ribbon form
2-a stupid person : SIMPLETON
3- Shocked
4-none of the above

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

just kiddin'
I think it is some kind of authomatic performance based on some kind of algorhytm initiated by some kind of manual gesture Cool

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A noodle is a selfplaying patch.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

also
freesearch.co.uk wrote:
to play a musical instrument without giving it full or serious attention:

- I just sat at the piano noodling.


AFAIK, In Nord Modular culture, It means a patch that is itself, a performance or composition. May be derived from the typical unfathomable tangle of patch cords resembling cooked noodles.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An illustration.

Jan.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep, on the Nord Modulars they even look like a bowl of noodles when all the cables are on.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Man vs. Machine or ManMachine? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Current technology is capable of both generating notes and generating sounds, just like the person behind it is.

This means your synths could play music composed by you or you could play music composed (or generated) by the computer...


The following movie shows a drumming robot which is programmed to creatively play a rythm that accompanies what the human drummer plays:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veQS6tsogAA
(The work of a Prof.Weinberg of the MIT)

To do this, Genetic programming is used- The robot "knows" which several rythms are a good accomposition to the one he hears and does take one of them. It must not be the best one and is taken partly "creatively". It can also be a creative, new mix of several known rythms.

Now we are at Man vs. Machine of a ManMachine.

Weinberg told me that it has to be trained. It has to know it the way you like it, there is no completely "random" solution in jazz for example.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent thread, very relevant to my work.

I'm in the final stages of preparing some work for publication so I really don't have time to go in depth, but I will take just a moment to opine that if you're doing algorithmic composition, to a certain extent, the algorithms are the composition. Whether that extent is total, a large proportion, hardly any or practically none depends on the composer's priorities. I feel, then, that to claim ownership of the music means being the owner of the algorithms also. If your piece is largely algorithmically generated, but you're using somebody else's algorithms, how much can you say that the piece is "yours"?

Speaking aesthetically, if not technically, I think a successful compositional algorithm captures some aspects of the composer's thought processes. That may or may not go all the way down to specific note choices. The algorithmic chord arpeggiator that I developed for myself in SuperCollider has its loose basis in some techniques I used when I was writing music on paper, and I find that its output "sounds like me," so I keep using it! Paul Lansky strikes a somewhat different balance, for instance, when he analyzes the spectral content of field recordings and maps parameters onto note generating algorithms. At a high level, this is an original approach, and he designed the note generators too, and I think the music doesn't sound quite like anybody else.

For myself, I have no interest in complete pieces composed beginning to end by algorithms, but I'm endlessly fascinated by the challenges of giving the computer the responsibility to generate some, or even most, elements of a musical texture (with some realtime guidance).

James

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