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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Evolving Lunetta
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Feature Creep... Hee hee hee Smile
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Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey I found our simulator! It's none other than the venerable Spice 3f5, available for Macs in the very well documented and well coded form of MacSpice. You will find various front ends for Spice 3f5 on PC or Linux as well so we can post simulation files and share results.

I also did a search and found a library file: apparently it contains a digital model for *every* 4000 series CMOS device! wow, just what we need to do our simulations. Note that this does not include the 4500 devices but that's OK we should be able to redesign this thing properly using only 4000 devices.

Note also that many Spice front ends, MacSpice included, offer advanced features beyond the Spice 3f5 feature set. Do not use these as they will be incompatible with everyone else's Spice flavor. That said, we should be only using basic features anyway - transient simulations and timing diagrams, etc. So no problem just a caution to be aware of there.

I'm going to begin simulations tonight.

Les

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.

Les

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Talk about evolving Lunettas, this design is evolving too. I guess we can consider the first design to be an initial concept and now I'm looking at another. Specifically, a design that uses only one song generator and a huge population size stored in an SRAM.

Yes, SRAM. It's pure CMOS and nonvolatile so easy to work with and kosher for Lunettas being CMOS only. I like the 628128LP-85 (Jameco Part number 103982), 128k x 8 (1Mbit) part for $4.95 in quantity one as a DIP-32 package, data sheet attached.

A population size of 128k/8 is huge (16k members), more than enough for the job and I'm beginning to think of something more automated, like a circuit-based figure of merit (FOM). Audience selection is very slow and we can experiment with different figure of merit circuits, each of which will tend to produce a different result.

We can look at the SRAM data in creating a FOM, or do some processing of the analog output signal, or both, though I believe looking at the SRAM data alone will be most efficient.

Any ideas for a circuit based FOM?

Les


CMOS Static RAM HM628128D.pdf
 Description:
a nice big fat juicy SRAM for only five bucks!

Download
 Filename:  CMOS Static RAM HM628128D.pdf
 Filesize:  155.95 KB
 Downloaded:  60 Time(s)


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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All your ideas sound good, Les Smile
Inventor wrote:
Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.

Les

WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! Crying or Very sad If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
All your ideas sound good, Les Smile
Inventor wrote:
Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.

Les

WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! Crying or Very sad If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain...


Well, just because a part is obsolete does not mean you cannot buy it. I'm sure you can find some on Ebay or maybe Electronics Gold Mine, places that deal with surplus stuff. But just don't use an obsolete part on a production design for a new product. For hobbling around, you can always grab a few... at a higher price usually.

Les

p.s. Jameco does not sell the part either.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, so the 4000 series CMOS library that I found is OrCAD dependent so it won't work with Spice, great. Next I'm searching the web for 4000 models and I run across this from Fairchild Semiconductor:


Quote:
Do you have CD4007UB Spice Model available?

The CD4000 products do not have spice models due to the age of the designs. This technology was first introduced around 1970. At that time, standardized modelling had not come into common use, and so there were no models ever produced for the CD4000 family.


How about that? Well, I'm not really concerned about timing all that much since we are working with audio, so how about some behavioral models or something? Tough to find. TI does not have them either. I may have to make some myself...

Les

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I did my first simulation, yay! It is an inverter DC transfer function, shown below. The circuit file for this one is:

Code:
INVERTER DC SWEEP
VDD  1 0 10
VGS  100 0 0
M1   101  100  0  0 MOD1 L=4U W=6U AD=10P AS=10P
M2   101  100  1  1 MOD2 L=4U W=6U AD=10P AS=10P
.MODEL MOD1 NMOS LEVEL=1 VTO=-2 NSUB=1.0E15
.MODEL MOD2 PMOS LEVEL=1 VTO=2 NSUB=1.0E15
.DC VGS 0 10 0.5
.END


Try it yourself, I'm thinking of making models for the designs that I make - yes, transistor level simulations of Lunettas, why not? This way we can simulate all kinds of circuits including mixed signal stuff like R2R ladders and resistive summations and all that - transients too. This is exciting!

Les


Inverter DC Sweep.jpg
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it's smooth and curvy!
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Inverter DC Sweep.jpg



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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor wrote:
JingleJoe wrote:
All your ideas sound good, Les Smile
Inventor wrote:
Unfortunately, TI lists the 4006B chip as obsolete. Plus it is not in the library file.

Les

WHAT!? But it's such a good shift register! Crying or Very sad If I can't get a few in the future, that's my latest design down the drain...


Well, just because a part is obsolete does not mean you cannot buy it. I'm sure you can find some on Ebay or maybe Electronics Gold Mine, places that deal with surplus stuff. But just don't use an obsolete part on a production design for a new product. For hobbling around, you can always grab a few... at a higher price usually.

Les

p.s. Jameco does not sell the part either.

My local electronics supplier still has it, but I don't know how many. Probably a dwlindling stock ... anyone know of any other little CMOS shift registers? I am aware of the 4094, but it's only 8 bits opposed to the 18 bits of the 4006.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The CD4015 and CD4021 are 8 bits also. There are some shift registers in the CD4500 range also, but Jameco does not sell them either so they might be obsolete.

I've got a model of the CD40106 working but I can't get an oscillation simulation to work, just DC transfer function. This is common as oscillators in simulation are difficult to start and stable once started properly. I have tried specifying initial conditions, switching in the feedback resistor with a switch model, and adding "noise" sources. Well, I should just get on with the other devices.

Les

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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's the hell part of simulators... They don't always dutifully simulate. There may be other ICs you can use in the simulator to mimic what you know the 40106 will do. Perhaps a 7555 timer? But you get what I mean.

I'd have done what you did, init conditions and some noise. But really I don't think that kind of oscillator needs noise to start, the cap voltage is either over/under the schmitt threshhold or it's not. So a standalone sim of a 40106 osc doesn't work? I'd try it just the osc, no cap voltage monitor circuit and see what happens.

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JingleJoe



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In my simulations when I want an oscillator I just stick in a signal generator which does exactly the same thing as my oscillator circuit Neutral
I have some spice models of 4000 series cmos, in a bit of an unusual format for my simulator but lots of ones which you may not be able to find around freely, if you want any give me a shout with the part number.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
In my simulations when I want an oscillator I just stick in a signal generator which does exactly the same thing as my oscillator circuit Neutral
I have some spice models of 4000 series cmos, in a bit of an unusual format for my simulator but lots of ones which you may not be able to find around freely, if you want any give me a shout with the part number.


Well, I've branched this off to another thread which is here:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-54195.html

I discuss the difficulty I'm having with transistor level simulations of register based devices, specifically the CD4013 and CD4015 parts. Do you have models for those Joe?

Les

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

damn, don't seem to have any of those, I have more transistors and gates than I can count though!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
damn, don't seem to have any of those, I have more transistors and gates than I can count though!


Yeah, those are the easy ones to model! I'm making progress on my models though, see related thread.

Les

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
here's a graph showing what it does
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

(I found it on this page which by itself might be interesting)


I did not realize it at the time ... but doesn't the rate multiplier output look a lot like an Euclidean Rhythm?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
I did not realize it at the time ... but doesn't the rate multiplier output look a lot like an Euclidean Rhythm?

I didn't know what a Euclidean Rhythm was at the time, but you're right, it does look a lot like it. Very Happy
And I just noticed (or had forgotten) that the output is inverted from the CLK.
Too bad the CD4089 is difficult to get/expensive, because it makes a nice rhythm generator.

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