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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Kickstarter campaign for Nord Modular G2 development
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veta



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Kickstarter campaign for Nord Modular G2 development Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just had this idea this morning so I decided to start a thread here to get some feedback / discussion / brainstorming on this.

it's obvious that Clavia has abandoned the G2, and no G3 is forthcoming. It seems the main reason behind this is lack of money (the G2 was a niche product that apparently didn't sell enough to justify maintaining it or producing more).

However, I've seen many examples recently of Kickstarter.com being used to raise a lot of money to support niche creative projects that otherwise wouldn't get funded.

I would like to use this thread as a place to discuss the feasibility of using Kickstarter (or something like it) to raise money for Clavia to do some new development for the G2 platform. I'm not proposing we try to get Clavia to commit to years-long support of the G2, but rather a one time project that would provide the G2 a lot of room to grow in the future.


some initial ideas:

1. a software developer kit for the G2, which would allow people with programming knowledge to code new modules for the G2 that users could install & use on their G2s alongside the stock modules.

2. a processor / firmware upgrade, which would allow things like greater room for storage of more than 8 variations per patch, more internal buses to route audio between slots, etc...

3. new modules coded by Clavia. We know that there were some modules planned for the G2 that never made it to the final product. Perhaps Clavia could be persuaded to complete some of those and add a few new ones while they're at it.

4. editor improvements.

5. other ideas?


some of these ideas obviously require less work than others and would probably have a better chance of success. but think about how much money some users have already paid for their G2 expansion boards. Some of these suggestions would, if realized, have an even greater 'expansion' effect on the G2. If we were able to get enough people to pledge money towards achieving some of these goals, it might add up to enough to motivate Clavia.

Let's discuss!
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Estarriol



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The first thing you have to ask -- does clavia want it and how much money will it need?.. Leave it to Clavia and you probably stay where you are now. Make decisions that will depend on you and people in general.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why not invest our time and energy in getting more out of the G2 as it is? It's still not exhausted yet.
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Estarriol



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I agree with Tim. I think production of more keyboard G2s (with partial hardware redesign if there are no parts available) is a worthy goal, not expanding with more modules.
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veta



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow. pretty surprised by these replies & general lack thereof. thought people would be more enthusiastic about this.

Quote:
The first thing you have to ask -- does clavia want it and how much money will it need?


well, that is how it would work. we would contact Clavia, set out a list of possibilities, and ask 'given funding, which of these things are you willing & able to do and how much funding would it take to get it done?" based on that, we set up a Kickstarter project to try and raise the necessary amounts for the available goals. if a funding goal is not reached, nothing happens and nobody has to pay anything. but if a funding goal is reached, we would have the money necessary and the commitment from Clavia.


Quote:
Why not invest our time and energy in getting more out of the G2 as it is? It's still not exhausted yet.


well, nothing is stopping anyone from doing that, right? all this does, if successful, is expand the possibilities, possibly by a great amount.
...and there really is very little time & energy involved here anyway. you pledge an amount of money and either the goal is reached or it isn't.


Quote:
I think production of more keyboard G2s (with partial hardware redesign if there are no parts available) is a worthy goal, not expanding with more modules.


this doesn't make sense to me.

1. we already have G2s. why do we need more of them?

2. the amount of money we would have to raise to get more G2s manufactured would be astronomical. each person who wanted one would probably have to pledge 4x or more of what the original retail cost was to get them made in such a small batch. It's obviously not profitable to produce them or Clavia would still be doing it. it is much more feasible to ask for improvements be made to what already exists (which for the most part just consists of getting someone @ Clavia to sit down and take the time to write the code) than to ask for a whole new run of units be manufactured from scratch.
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Estarriol



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
we already have G2s. why do we need more of them?

well, G2 keyboards are a bit pricey, and not widely available. this is what made all the marketing concept barely profitable. peoples lack of synth knowledge and modular synth complexity -- yes, but its pricey for most of users of this forum.

regarding astronomical price... well, most of the price is engineering and software development, IMHO, i may be wrong... i would love to see the patents and schematics bought from clavia and made available, thats what would move modular synths usage forward. but thats not gonna happen. new modules? does any1 need em so hard to fundraise? i dont get the idea, sorry
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yesterday was the big summer solstice event here at electro-music.com, maybe that's why the replies haven't rained in. Smile

Anyway, I think this is a good idea. I'm a pessimist regarding how Clavia would respond, but if someone is willing to take charge and talk to them I'd say it's worth a try, and I would pledge something if the kickstarter project happened. I don't know if we would be able to collect as much as, say, €10000 though. But as I said, I'm a pessimist.

For me some kind of sampler module would be the killer feature. I know that Tim (and others) has made some killer work that can do most things that we'd need, but having a simple module that could be included in a simple patch is what I feel can lead to some epic NMG2 patches.

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Clavia is a very small company. Even if such a campaign would raise enough financial resources so one one of their programmers could be sufficiently paid to work on the G2 OS, it would still mean that this programmer would have to step out of his other duties and assignments for that period of time. And I very much doubt that Clavia has extra manpower to spare on side projects like working on a commercially unsuccessful product they discontinued years ago. I'm pretty sure they are busy enough as it is.

With physical modelling being in the door as the next big thing in digital piano technology, they have a lot of R&D ahead of them in the next few years if they want to stay on top of the game anyway. This stuff makes coding bandlimited oscillators etc. look like child's play.

With all respect -but I don't see the slightest chance and therefore I don't see any point in investing any effort in such a campaign. Rather use that energy for patching cool stuff on the G2 as it is. At least, that's what I do. Smile

cheers,
t
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veta



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

For me some kind of sampler module would be the killer feature. I know that Tim (and others) has made some killer work that can do most things that we'd need, but having a simple module that could be included in a simple patch is what I feel can lead to some epic NMG2 patches.


Yes! this is exactly what i was thinking. A sampler module, wavetables, granular synthesis, some unusual filter modules similar to some of the soundhack vst plug-ins, physical modeling stuff, etc...

not to take anything away from Tims mind-blowing patches, but a lot of them are by necessity very cpu-intensive, or use all 4 slots, or all the inter-slot buses, or are very difficult to integrate with an existing patch.

but if you had access to some of this stuff in a very cpu-optimized module that you could just drop in & integrate with a patch... you could go into some of your existing synth patches and swap out an oscillator with a sample module and come up with some amazing stuff. ...imagine the sorts of things Tim could come up with then! it really opens up a whole new level of possibilities.

someone at Clavia just needs to code it up, and given the Nord Wave i'd say a lot of that code is already written. This Kickstarter campaign could be just the impetus needed to get this implemented on the G2.
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veta



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
Clavia is a very small company. Even if such a campaign would raise enough financial resources so one one of their programmers could be sufficiently paid to work on the G2 OS, it would still mean that this programmer would have to step out of his other duties and assignments for that period of time. And I very much doubt that Clavia has extra manpower to spare on side projects like working on a commercially unsuccessful product they discontinued years ago. I'm pretty sure they are busy enough as it is.


that is a possibility, and you may be right... but i prefer to take a 'why not' attitude towards this.


if you try and fail, well... at least you tried. you might succeed or you might not.

...but if you don't try at all, well... then your failure is 100% guaranteed! Very Happy


sounds trite, i know, but it's true.

complaining on these forums hasn't accomplished anything.
what if we show them the money... and the commitment?

with the formality of a Kickstarter campaign, and real pledges from real people, that might just be the level of organization needed to make this happen.
why not give it a shot?
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
why not give it a shot?

If you want to go ahead and organize this, sure, you have my full support.

In terms of what I would like to see happen: Let's be realistic here, folks. I for one would already be happy for comprehensive bugfixes. As it is, the G2 often gives me the feeling of being an unfinished product -which it probably is. Iron out all the remaining bugs (those in the bug report section plus another bunch I never bothered to report) -Tim happy. I wouldn't dare ask for more.
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octavecat



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: kickstarter is not the answer Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do not believe a kickstarter campaign is the answer. It creates a secondary phase of proprietary, locked-down tools that leaves users to the mercy of Clavia.

What would foster a (theoretically) infinite lifespan for the G2 is convincing clavia to open-source the editor and the OS.

This is one of the main reasons x0xb0x has only become more popular since its release: the users have improved on not only the hardware, but the OS that it runs.

But this will never happen, unless Clavia either a) finds a way to protect its core IP and synthesis (e.g., private vs public libraries) while still open-sourcing the tools, or b) clavia decides to feel generous and just let it go.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Clavia is a hardware company, always has been. In other words: a manufacturer of "proprietary locked-down tools that leaves users to their mercy". Laughing Because that's what hardware is. Wink

Releasing and hosting open-source software is a completely different game. You need the web platform, the documentation, support, etc.. No offense, but of all "G2 wishes" this IMHO is the most unrealistic. It's totally out of step with what Clavia is and does.

I think that bugfixing is the most we could ever ask for.
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octavecat



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
Clavia is a hardware company, always has been. In other words: a manufacturer of "proprietary locked-down tools that leaves users to their mercy". Laughing Because that's what hardware is. Wink

Releasing and hosting open-source software is a completely different game. You need the web platform, the documentation, support, etc.. No offense, but of all "G2 wishes" this IMHO is the most unrealistic. It's totally out of step with what Clavia is and does.

I think that bugfixing is the most we could ever ask for.


Which is why i said "but this will never happen"

Open sourcing the NMG2 editor would be easy. You don't need anything other than the ability to upload it to github. I don't take any offense because I also believe it is unrealistic in that Clavia would not see the benefit of engaging non-paying customers.

But kickstarter is now how we should keep a company's business. I think we're just out of luck here.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

octavecat wrote:
I think we're just out of luck here.

I think so too. But if somebody positively WANTS to go ahead, well, go ahead. Laughing I give my full support.

Meanwhile, keep on patching new cool stuff. That's more important for keeping the G2 flame going IMHO.
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robsol
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't pretend to know much about how businesses and corporations are run, but I do know this: if you want to have any kind of influence on a company's desicions, you need to buy stocks in that company. If you want to be able to excert influence on a company, you need to have a large share in it.
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veta



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you have to realize that the attitude displayed here is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the silence has been pretty deafening. i'm honestly completely baffled by the general lack of response to this thread, as well as the defeatist attitude of those who have responded.

either way, i will be attempting to contact Clavia directly, and will keep at it until i get an answer from them one way or the other.


...but had there been a large number of positive replies here, and evidence of a good amount of motivated users who were willing to fund something like this, i could point Clavia to this thread and the chance of a positive response from them would be much greater.

as it is, it seems as if people have just given up on the chance of ever getting any further development to their G2s, so why should Clavia feel the least bit motivated to do anything?

at any rate, the whole idea was to get economics to work for us, if even on a small scale. to allow both sides (Clavia / the users) to be able to get what they need to further development by going outside the usual channels a bit. i still think it can work, and the Kickstarter site is full of success stories both small and large, but people need to be willing to give it a shot and say "why not!" instead of "why bother?".

if anyone has any positive feelings or ideas about this it would be very helpful if you could post them here.
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jamos



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd answer "why not?", but you don't seem to be listening.

There's nothing in it for Clavia, other than whatever paltry sums could be raised on Kickstarter. That system is intended to invest (look the word up) in starving enterprises that have an idea to build and grow in. Clavia is the opposite: a successful enterprise that has (sadly) moved on from the modular idea. There's nothing to invest in; they've mined the vein and it is played out.
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
it seems as if people have just given up on the chance of ever getting any further development to their G2s


I think you put the finger on the spot there. Smile If you have another look around these (and other) forums, you'll find several threads like "Ooh Clavia have announced something at NAMM, will it be a G3? [...] Meh, it turned out to be another organ/stage piano".

I respect and am glad for your enthusiasm, but you can't blame people for being realistic.

/Stefan

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varice



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
you have to realize that the attitude displayed here is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the silence has been pretty deafening. i'm honestly completely baffled by the general lack of response to this thread, as well as the defeatist attitude of those who have responded.

either way, i will be attempting to contact Clavia directly, and will keep at it until i get an answer from them one way or the other.


...but had there been a large number of positive replies here, and evidence of a good amount of motivated users who were willing to fund something like this, i could point Clavia to this thread and the chance of a positive response from them would be much greater.

as it is, it seems as if people have just given up on the chance of ever getting any further development to their G2s, so why should Clavia feel the least bit motivated to do anything?

at any rate, the whole idea was to get economics to work for us, if even on a small scale. to allow both sides (Clavia / the users) to be able to get what they need to further development by going outside the usual channels a bit. i still think it can work, and the Kickstarter site is full of success stories both small and large, but people need to be willing to give it a shot and say "why not!" instead of "why bother?".

if anyone has any positive feelings or ideas about this it would be very helpful if you could post them here.

veta, your idea of asking Clavia if they would be interested in new funding for further G2 firmware development is *not* new. This idea has been already raised here on this forum years ago, and it didn’t get anywhere then either.

Clavia did *not* even bother to fix several well documented software bugs when the OS version 1.40 Patch Mutator and Adjuster was finally released all the way back in 2006.

Furthermore, even when several G2 users asked that Clavia simply produce a new run of G2 Expansion boards (which would not have required any further development cost on their part), they *refused* to act. A third party (Encore) stepped in at his own risks to meet the demand. See this:

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-33288.html

So, the lack of enthusiasm here on this forum for your kickstarter idea is not because it is a bad idea or that G2 users are uninterested in further G2 development, but instead that Clavia has proved that they are *not* interested in any further support of the discontinued G2 since about 2006.

I *really* wish that I could be more optimistic in support of your kickstarter idea, but the actions of Clavia so far have proven that they have no further interest in the G2.

But anyway, please go ahead and contact Clavia about your idea (and I truly wish you good luck with that), but please *don’t* disparage us forum members for your perceived lack of interest about your not so new idea.

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varice



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
...In terms of what I would like to see happen: Let's be realistic here, folks. I for one would already be happy for comprehensive bugfixes. As it is, the G2 often gives me the feeling of being an unfinished product -which it probably is. Iron out all the remaining bugs (those in the bug report section plus another bunch I never bothered to report) -Tim happy. I wouldn't dare ask for more.


Yes, I totally agree, the G2 is *unfinished*. It still has several well documented software bugs that were not fixed before the 1.40 release, as well as several bugs that have been documented since then.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My "defeatist attitude" towards this topic stems from having talked to Clavia's senior software developer about it personally a few years ago. Some people are late to the party. Laughing

I see it as a sign of their considerable achievement that a lot of people obviously have no clue how small a company Clavia is. Bombarding them with mails, requests etc. is just a waste of time. They are notoriously unresponsive in such matters and I don't blame them.

So rather than waste time and energy, use that to patch new cool stuff on the G2. I'm still getting amazing results out of it.

beer Peace
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
My "defeatist attitude" towards this topic stems from having talked to Clavia's senior software developer about it personally a few years ago. Some people are late to the party. Laughing

I see it as a sign of their considerable achievement that a lot of people obviously have no clue how small a company Clavia is. Bombarding them with mails, requests etc. is just a waste of time. They are notoriously unresponsive in such matters and I don't blame them.

So rather than waste time and energy, use that to patch new cool stuff on the G2. I'm still getting amazing results out of it.

beer Peace


Sums it up perfectly. Thanks, Tim. I am also sorry if my negativity in the thread above could be perceived as a lack of interest. It is not. It's simply my own reality founded in direct experiences with Clavia and knowledge of what Kickstarter projects tend to succeed.

I do find it a continual bummer that they don't understand the value of keeping legacy users happy* via sw updates/opensourcing the editor/whatever, but at least they are consistent and predictable in their attitude towards that.

*happy users recommend Clavia products to others
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some more development would be amazing.
a couple small fixes like tim said would be great

about the sampler idea, the g2 has no harddisk/flashdrive whatsoever.

I would just want a nice Unison module so i can jerk off on my polyfonic uni patchess

Hope someone gets trough to them one day.
but yea can understand its a lot of work getting those stage piano's made and send out world wide.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like the idea, but am not too optimistic. I would be happy with bugfixes at this point. Add-on boards or open IP don't seem worth the dreaming time. I eventually gave up these and just added some more hardware from a different manufacturer :-/

They are notoriously unresponsive in such matters and I don't blame them.

I do blame them for this. Other companies like Access and Elektron treat their customers much more as an asset and follow through in terms of things like operating system updates and so on. Now, I know that for a small company 'if you give your users an inch, then will ask for a mile.' Software updates cost money to produce and don't necessarily translate into increased sales (especially with a tool like the NM, whose chief benefit for the user is versatility - reducing the need for buying more gear). On the other hand, it does not cost much to just communicate with people.

I would respect Clavia more if they had simply said 'sales of the G2 were so weak, unfortunately we cannot go further.' And really, maybe the sales would have been better if they had a little more 2-way dialog with the customers. For examle, the G2 engine is a good product if you already used the NM G1 and understood the concept, but what a terrible impression to new buyers - a box which has no controls except an on-off switch. And the record since then...well, even though I have owned 3 different models of Nord Modular, I feel nervous about buying a Clavia product again in the future.

As an alternative, maybe we should consider a Kickstarter to support Bruno's open source NM editor, or something similar. Sorry to say, but thinking about dealing with Clavia actually puts me in a bad mood!
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