electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
CMOS keyboard
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 1 of 2 [36 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Author Message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: CMOS keyboard
Subject description: with more sound samples
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wanted some "regular notes" so, I built a top octave generator from 2 40106's, 12 caps and 12 multi-turn trim-pots.
I divided that with 6 4520's for 4 octaves.
Using an old 44-note organ manual and 11 4081's to "gate" the dividers I ended up with 44-note polyphony!
It's not without its problems, the output is too weak to drive other
CMOS circuitry, which was kind of the point.
Here's a sound sample, using the keyboard, some shiftreg's, and other tuned osc's.
It's in the key of D.
http://soundcloud.com/bill-chavez/passant-regardant


DSC00050.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  1.34 MB
 Viewed:  103 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

DSC00050.JPG



Last edited by jcintheus on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
textual



Joined: Dec 05, 2009
Posts: 78
Location: New York City
Audio files: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

who thats super cool! i assume this provides a CV of sorts to drive say an oscillator? polyphony? schematic? sound sample sounds great! why not then use an op-amp or a CMOS booster circuit with 4049 to get the level back up?
_________________
Dave
______________________
www.dlbelectronics.com
www.textualmusic.com
www.mercuryprogram.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Cynosure
Site Admin


Joined: Dec 11, 2010
Posts: 696
Location: Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Audio files: 40

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very cool. I did something similar a while ago but added the option to play dual top octave sets with one an octave higher. then i added a bunch of other cmos stuff all within the same housing (schmidt trigger, dividers, sequencer, Wasp filters) and have both an input and output for the sequencer clock. More info on the site in my signature.

I am intetested in seeing a schematic of yours if you have one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
attdestroyers



Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Malvern, Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is awesome. I've been researching this a bit because this is definitely the next step for me and my lunetta. I'd love to see any schematics or additional info you have.

Cynosure - Your C-monster is awesome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, so here is a partial schematic. There are 2 40106's to provide 12 oscillators.
One for each note. 6 4520 dual binary counters divide those 12 notes 4 octaves each.
44 of those notes are gated by +V via 44 AND gates.
This show the scheme for one note through 4 octaves.
The outputs (all 44) are summed with resistors.
Also, there are pull down resistors on the gate inputs. (not shown)


Picture 4.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  19.41 KB
 Viewed:  124 Time(s)
This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

Picture 4.png


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richardc64



Joined: Jun 01, 2006
Posts: 614
Location: NYC
Audio files: 25

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jcintheus wrote:
The outputs (all 44) are summed with resistors.

Ah ha! At that point the signal becomes "audio" -- analog, not clearly defined 1s and 0s, which is why "the output is too weak to drive other CMOS." You have to get to the AND outputs before they're mixed -- but which one?

You could make a 44-input OR with each input connected to a AND output to drive other CMOS, but that would only be effective -- or should I say "predictable"? -- when playing one note at a time. Another strateqy would be to divide the keyboard into zones, with several multi-input ORs, then select one for driving whatever CMOS you think up.

A somewhat cheesy effect would be to add a pull-down to all the 4520 ENables and pulse them to repeatedly turn all notes on/off while sounding.

Quote:
It's in the key of D.

More like "A", for Awesome.

_________________
"I am endeavoring, ma'am, to create a mnemonic memory circuit... using stone
knives and bearskins." -- Spock to Edith Keeler
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Ah ha! At that point the signal becomes "audio" -- analog, not clearly defined 1s and 0s, which is why "the output is too weak to drive other CMOS." You have to get to the AND outputs before they're mixed -- but which one?

Thanks, that's just the kind of clue I needed!
Also, I've been wondering about 3-state outputs?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cynosure
Site Admin


Joined: Dec 11, 2010
Posts: 696
Location: Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Audio files: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What i did with mine was I actively mixed them with an opamp. I used a pot for the feedback resistor on the opamp. When I want a nice polyphonic mix for sound then i turn the pot down so there is no distortion. When I want to use the sound to drive other CMOS chips then I turn up the pot, which increases the amplification on the output.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cynosure wrote:
What i did with mine was I actively mixed them with an opamp. I used a pot for the feedback resistor on the opamp. When I want a nice polyphonic mix for sound then i turn the pot down so there is no distortion. When I want to use the sound to drive other CMOS chips then I turn up the pot, which increases the amplification on the output.

I tried something like that, but I always ended up with too much distortion.
Maybe a schematic? or a part no. for the op-amp? single supply?
Maybe I should look at your site.
Thanks for the feedback!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cynosure
Site Admin


Joined: Dec 11, 2010
Posts: 696
Location: Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Audio files: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There isn't a schematic on my site. I worked from bits and pieces of various schematics and some stripboard layouts.

I basically did this without the pots on each input:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/audmix-f4.gif

Also, I think i used 100k resistors on the inputs, and R4 was a pot (I think either 100k or 500k).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richardc64



Joined: Jun 01, 2006
Posts: 614
Location: NYC
Audio files: 25

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jcintheus wrote:
Quote:
Ah ha! At that point the signal becomes "audio" -- analog, not clearly defined 1s and 0s, which is why "the output is too weak to drive other CMOS." You have to get to the AND outputs before they're mixed -- but which one?

Thanks, that's just the kind of clue I needed!
Also, I've been wondering about 3-state outputs?

Hmmm. I'd have to think about that. My first thought is that it would be an extensive revision of the circuit.

Another thing you might try is powering the stuff you want to interface with your keyboard at a lower voltage. CD4xxx works at Vcc=3V; 74HCxxx at 2V, and 74AC(T) at 1.5V. Alternatively, you could power the kb at a higher voltage than 5V cmos. The signals are bound to hit the right levels at least some of the time.

_________________
"I am endeavoring, ma'am, to create a mnemonic memory circuit... using stone
knives and bearskins." -- Spock to Edith Keeler
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JL



Joined: Jun 25, 2012
Posts: 11
Location: New England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is really cool! I've been wanting to do something like this for some time, but finding a proper keyboard has been difficult. Where did yours come from?

Your design is very similar to combo organs of the 60's. The difference is instead of gating the oscillators with the key, the key would send the oscillator to a common buss (usually one per octave), which would then be filtered and mixed with the subsequent octave busses. The downside to this was that you needed a key switch for every footage and a buss for every octave of every footage so for a nice full sound with, say, five footages, you needed five switches for each key, making the whole key assembly rather bulky.

Well done! At the very least you have a polyphonic square wave synth, which is totally rad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cynosure
Site Admin


Joined: Dec 11, 2010
Posts: 696
Location: Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Audio files: 40

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For mine I just used a regular scanning type keyboard. I attached the outputs from the dividers the appropriate keys at the solder point where the diode is connected, on the side of the diode closest to the switch. The pcb for the keyboard mixes all the key outputs into a few buses, which I soldered together with a strip of bare wire and then I took my output from there. the mixing resistors were at the divider outputs (although I was later told that it is best to have them close to the opamp if possible).

And this top octave method is extensive no matter how you go about it (even with a MK50240).

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
richardc64



Joined: Jun 01, 2006
Posts: 614
Location: NYC
Audio files: 25

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cynosure wrote:
And this top octave method is extensive no matter how you go about it (even with a MK50240).


Indeed...
http://www.sdiy.org/richardc64/topoctave/

_________________
"I am endeavoring, ma'am, to create a mnemonic memory circuit... using stone
knives and bearskins." -- Spock to Edith Keeler
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

richardc64 wrote:

Hmmm. I'd have to think about that. My first thought is that it would be an extensive revision of the circuit.

Another thing you might try is powering the stuff you want to interface with your keyboard at a lower voltage. CD4xxx works at Vcc=3V; 74HCxxx at 2V, and 74AC(T) at 1.5V. Alternatively, you could power the kb at a higher voltage than 5V cmos. The signals are bound to hit the right levels at least some of the time.

Yeah, maybe 12v, not bad.

JL wrote:
finding a proper keyboard has been difficult. Where did yours come from?

I got it from an old Wurlitzer(broken), it's a single buss manual. I have another with three busses. More footages? Maybe later.
Eventually I'd like to make some music. Smile

cynosure wrote:
(although I was later told that it is best to have them close to the opamp if possible

I'll keep that in mind
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jcintheus wrote:
Cynosure wrote:
What i did with mine was I actively mixed them with an opamp. I used a pot for the feedback resistor on the opamp. When I want a nice polyphonic mix for sound then i turn the pot down so there is no distortion. When I want to use the sound to drive other CMOS chips then I turn up the pot, which increases the amplification on the output.

I tried something like that, but I always ended up with too much distortion.
Maybe a schematic? or a part no. for the op-amp? single supply?


I tried again and now it works! I think my problem involved the value(1k) of the summing resistors I initially used. This time I tried 220k and it worked!
Here's a sample:http://soundcloud.com/bill-chavez/eleven-plus-two

Ok, let's see, output from keyboard to op-amp, op-amp to 4093 set up as an inverter.
From inverter to simple passive mixer(resistors) ALSO to 4046 set up as a multiplier.
Now, to multiply you must divide, for a divider I used a 4051/17 melody generator.
The A, B, and C inputs on the melody generator are controlled by a 4040.
From the output of the multiplier to another divider to divide by 8.
This multiplied and divided signal then is mixed with the signal from the 4093 and this is what I recorded.
Pitch bend is provided by a starve pot on the top octave osc's.
Also a starve pot on the osc to the clock on the 4040, to make the melody generator freak out.
One take, keyboard gibberish, very fun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
attdestroyers



Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 41
Location: Malvern, Ohio

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Awesome recording! sounds so good! This is starting to get pretty complex with all the divide then multiply stuff though. I think I'll try to figure out a simpler solution when i do mine. probably not possible, but ya never know.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 878
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The part around 1 minute sounds awesome Shocked maybe I'll make something like this, how did you acheive the sound in that section, jcintheus?
_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
The part around 1 minute sounds awesome Shocked maybe I'll make something like this, how did you acheive the sound in that section, jcintheus?

What you hear at around 1:00 is a musical interval, a fifth in this case, D and A.
All I did was hold down the keys and let physics do the rest. Smile
attdestroyers wrote:
Awesome recording! sounds so good! This is starting to get pretty complex with all the divide then multiply stuff though. I think I'll try to figure out a simpler solution when i do mine. probably not possible, but ya never know.

It's fully possible, all the divide then multiply stuff is just for fun, it's not "necessary".
I thought it was a good idea to use a melody gen. as a multiplier.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 878
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jcintheus wrote:
JingleJoe wrote:
The part around 1 minute sounds awesome Shocked maybe I'll make something like this, how did you acheive the sound in that section, jcintheus?

What you hear at around 1:00 is a musical interval, a fifth in this case, D and A.
All I did was hold down the keys and let physics do the rest. Smile

Why does that sounds so good!? thanks for getting back to me, I thought perhaps you used some circuit trickery, but it was very simple after all!

_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
Why does that sounds so good!? thanks for getting back to me, I thought perhaps you used some circuit trickery, but it was very simple after all!


I think it's simply a matter of square waves interfering with each other at a specific ratio.
There's also a major third in there that sounds rather nifty.
This may provide some insight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_intonation
I'm using 12 tone equal "temperament" But tempered 5th's are pretty close to just 5th's. I think.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 878
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm aware of thier relationship Smile I recently did some work into calculating the frequencies of notes in a scale. For a better sound it is better to go with just intonation. I think, if I remember correctly, just fourths and thirds are very close to thier equal tempered counterparts too.
_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JingleJoe wrote:
I'm aware of thier relationship Smile I recently did some work into calculating the frequencies of notes in a scale. For a better sound it is better to go with just intonation. I think, if I remember correctly, just fourths and thirds are very close to thier equal tempered counterparts too.


If you want to play diatonically maybe, I think for full chromaticism you may be better off with equal temperament.
P4 and P5 are in inverse relationship to the tonic.(same error)
Thirds, while "sweeter" sounding in just intonation, wreak al kinds of havoc if you want to, for instance, use a secondary dominant chord so...
The nice thing about 12 osc's is that I can tune this thing however I need.(muti-turn trim-pots)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JingleJoe



Joined: Nov 10, 2011
Posts: 878
Location: Lancashire, England
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aye thats a very useful feature Smile I plan to impliment the same tuning method if I make a cmos synth this way.
_________________
As a mad scientist I am ruled by the dictum of science: "I could be wrong about this but lets find out"


Green Dungeon Alchemist Laboratories
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jcintheus



Joined: Oct 16, 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So, here's another CMOS keyboard track.
http://soundcloud.com/bill-chavez/the-money-programme

This time I sent the summed output to a mixer then used an lm386 to boost the analog signal back into CMOS range.
Then I divided by 2(4027) and multiplied by 3(4046 and 4027) for a nice full tone.
The 4046 used in the multiplier circuit is responsible for the 'falling" tones between key presses. (The Drall laser effect)

Just a bunch of cheesy midi instruments and the CMOS "Synth"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: mosc
Page 1 of 2 [36 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use