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TR-808 Voice STRIP Boards...
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elmegil



Joined: Mar 20, 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Leaving aside the op amps, that's basically what we have on the trigger input front end anyway. Ken's is a 10nF cap instead of Eric's 100nF, and the diode is in-line instead of clamping to ground, but it's the same general idea.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I breadboarded this circuit again. I'm running into the same issues I had years ago when I last tried. Double triggering, or a trigger with a bounce straight afterwards. I can bluff my way around it with a diode on the trigger input, then a small cap and a resistor parallel to ground. Embarassed I'm also experiencing a click which is too loud compared to the boom. Also, if I trigger rapidly the boom is not consistent. It's more like BOOOM, boom, boom, BOOOOOM....

I was heartened to note elmegil, you have an EE degree! That surely means we are not all prodding around in the dark. Laughing I hoping you come up with a solution. My arts degree isn't much help here. Electronics for me is like going into a war zone, but for some reason I keep coming back for more. I need to get these 40+ stripboard circuits I have here into a case before the year is out. This kick drum could potentially send me into a dangerous three week campaign with much bloodshed. Having said that, if anyone can come up with a solution, I'm happy to draw pictures from schematics.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Don't put TOO much faith in that degree, it lay dormant for over 20 years while I worked in IT (and still do), and even when it was fresh I was not so great with analog circuits. I think I understand transistors and op amps WAY better now after 6 months of practical application than I did then... Idea

I really do think that if you use the original circuit, without the trigger conditioning input (diode, cap, resistor) you have to be closer to emulating the original triggering mechanisms. I just wish I understood the timing of the BD pulse from the CPU versus the trigger pulse

I only really think the click is too loud when I have the tone set to very bright. Then again, I have never heard a raw TR-808 to compare it too--plenty of techno, but that's all processed enough that you lose what the original sound was. I agree though, I am getting nothing like a consistent kick sound from one trigger to the next.

Someone was just posting to the forums about a different TR-808 kick circuit/PCB, I think I will try and compare some. If that doesn't turn up anything interesting, I will clear off some semi-dormant breadboard space and see what I can do about tracking back some of that other circuitry from the service manual.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mine sounds very much like the one in the first video toward the end:

http://praxistest.cc/808basedrum/

Does that match your view of the click being too loud?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes it pretty much matches what I'm getting. I too saw the other kick just posted. Bare in mind those transistors have different pin outs being the same ones as used in the real 808. Maybe it's just me, but the click seems too loud. It's strange, as we have followed the voice board as is. My last soldered effort ended up being triggered at pin 3 with a pot to a cap to ground from the trigger input. This allowed me to adjust the click level. No, not sound electrical engineering! It did give me to my ears a kick sound which would be consistent and had the ability to knock back that click. Nobody will see the inside of the machine, but I would prefer to do things correctly rather than the bent method. So in a nutshell, I'm relying on you! Laughing What we're after is a kick drum which will fire from the dirtiest trigger or pulse imaginable, delivering a nectar of the gods output whilst at the same time being capable of demolishing small buildings a mile away. That's the brief. If you can do that- I'll draw it. You hum it- I'll play it! Laughing or should that be the other way around?
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Only differences in that circuit...

1) in addition to the CMOS Trigger (as labelled by Eric now that I look at the schem more closely)--the diode/cap/100k to ground--they have a pad for the original trigger.

2) A Tune pot across R14 (value unknown)

3) a "tune env" pot + a 2.2K across R13, again pot value unknown

4) an Extra Decay pot + a 390K across R23, again pot value unknown

They wired it the way we have been--Accent to +15, trigger to CMOS in. Listening to the last video on the page, they too are having the not quite consistent levels of boom.

Back to the trigger...

Now that I think about that some, in the original that came from the CPU, and could have been a TTL level trigger rather than a CMOS trigger. What's the amplitude of your trigger, minus? It could be that if it's a full 15V that's why you're getting a double trigger without the CMOS conditioning ckt.

Eric says this on his page:

Quote:
if you are driving the drums with a logic circuit, you’ll need a little bit of trigger generator “glue” inbetween. Basically this lets the energy of the positive transition thru to trigger the drums, and shaves off the negative edge. If you omit the trigger generator, the drums sound weird b/c they will also trigger on the negative edge, with a different and weaker tone, reduced decay time… weird.


So maybe my theory about TTL is wrong, but then how did they generate that trigger that would behave differently?

Oh and as I look at the trigger conditioner for the umpteenth time, one other thing I did differently was I used another 1N4148 instead of a 1N914A there as well. I've always seen them treated as equivalent...



Not sure what you mean by triggered at pin 3.... of the TL072? What were the specs on the trigger you're using?

Instead of tying accent to 15V, try doing this, and then turn the pot down and see if the click sound is more balanced? The overall level will go down as well, but you can make up for that with the level pot and amplification.


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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I may have misread that PCB, according to this site with mods:

http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Roland/TR-808/mods/808.kick.decay.and.tuning.txt

The 390K for extra decay (to the point of self oscillation) is across the 47K that Eric's schematic lists as R15.

Edit: NOPE, the one at praxistest is a 390K plus a pot across the 470k at R23. I guess it's all about increasing the gain through that feedback/twin T circuit, however you might do it.

The "tune" pot is 100K, and is a sub for the 47k resistor, not across it.

I really need to go back and read the "circuit description" in the service manual, I've only been reading schematics and other people's writing so far.

Oh and as for the inconsistent kick:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/585303-inconsistant-bass-drum-tr-808-a.html

Apparently totally normal with long decays. Some folks in that thread claim that the original diodes don't have the same problem, but several people said their "real" 808's exhibited the same thing.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oooh...

http://www.msc175.de/geraete/DL-808/

needs google translate or similar if you don't read german, but wow, that looks excellent. Smile
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One more reference. There's an awesome analysis of the circuit by Robin Whittle in this thread about the inconsistent BD, with a couple comments about the click which could help me figure out what else we might do about the loud click, if the accent pot doesn't do the trick Smile

http://analogue-heaven.1065350.n5.nabble.com/TR-808-Bass-Drum-has-variable-punch-amp-decay-td68912.html
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks elmegil for your hard work. That link to the Robin Whittle analysis is excellent. I understand the 'BOOOM boom' issue now. (note correct terminology). There's a lot at play here besides variations in component values, such as the stage of the decaying sine wave at which a subsequent trigger pulse is applied. The answer is to reduce the decay I think or slow down the tempo. I'm not sure a really booming kick sounds all that great anyway. Just seems to make everything muddy. I wouldn't bother with an extra decay mod personally.

I have added the accent pot as you illustrated. It seems to be ok. The click is not all that bad really. I think I can live with it. I'd prefer it to be marginally less, but it's not crucial. Fiddling around on the breadboard I've noticed that altering or even removing the 10K resistor across the tone pot has an effect on the prominence of the click. The higher the value- the less obvious the click. Again, this is just random fiddling around.

The sampled 808 kicks we hear would not have these subtle interactions we see in the analogue circuit. Variations in the sound when triggering again before the decay has ended would not occur I imagine.

And lastly, I did look at the German site you linked to. There seems to be a couple of tuning mods on the BD schematic. I might see what effect they have on the sound, although I think I'll just layout a new stripboard and leave the circuit as is.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Fiddling around on the breadboard I've noticed that altering or even removing the 10K resistor across the tone pot has an effect on the prominence of the click. The higher the value- the less obvious the click. Again, this is just random fiddling around.


Right, that was basically where I was thinking to go next on the click question: can we attenuate it some (I would expect increasing a resistor on the input stage, or as you tried, adjusting the tone which is just an LPF.

I'll look at that some more just for completeness....
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WRT increasing R24, that makes perfect sense.

R24 in parallel with the Tone pot plus R15 is the resistive part of a passive low pass filter. C7 is the capacitor part. So with a 10k pot and a 10k R24, the highest resistance for that is 5k + 220R or 5.2K. With the 100nF cap, that gives a lowest possible cutoff frequency somewhere around 320 Hz. As you drop the pot to zero, the resistance drops to 220R and the cut off frequency goes higher until it's outside audible range.

If you increase R24, you increase the maximum resistance of the resistor in the LPF and so you drop the lowest possible cutoff frequency. if I put a 20K resistor in parallel instead of a 10k, for example, that increases my max from 5.2k to 6.8k and drops the cutoff requency down to more like 240Hz.

That would cut off more of the high frequency click....
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elmegil wrote:
if I put a 20K resistor in parallel instead of a 10k, for example, that increases my max from 5.2k to 6.8k and drops the cutoff requency down to more like 240Hz.

That would cut off more of the high frequency click....


Funny you should say that. I have a 20K resistor in that exact spot on my breadboard. I noticed on that German site that they have a 1K resistor parallel with a 10K pot but I'm assuming that is an error.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Back to the issue of the trigger/accent....

I don't see where it defines what level is expected at BD in, but it's an output directly from the CPU and it's "anded" to the trigger/accent pulse. It has to be high when the accent trigger pulse fires, but it is not always so. I expect that it is actually a 5V input, and it would have to connect after the trigger conditioning that we've put in there to work correctly. Putting in a constant high voltage before the trigger conditioner would eventually lead to T3 being shut off, which is why it didn't work for me.

The accent pulse is supposed to vary from 4 to 14 V, and only be 1ms wide.

I expect that I would have to change both the BD connection I attempted previously and also the width of my accent pulse to get this to behave the way I expect it did originally.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You see, I'm having trouble getting my head around the 'anding' part. I can see the associated circuitry on the schematic. Is it that the instrument data comes on, as in a gate, then the voice is triggered with a 1ms trigger (the common trigger) through the accent? I have just tied my BD input to +V and can trigger via the accent. Maybe I have this wrong? I'm assuming a pulse is applied at a step to the BD input... then a 1ms trigger hits the accent. The 1ms signal is hitting all the time; it just fires the drum when the BD input is on. I could have this wrong though.

I was just laying out a new stripboard diagram. Not that it's needed mind you. I might hold off a bit and get back to the lab for some more tests... and wait and see what our Chicago R&D dept can come up with.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think that's exactly it. The trigger fires every step regardless of whether the instrument is enabled or not. The trigger is global, for everything, and includes a level set by the accent knob when accent is activated for a given step. The CPU controls which instruments fire on a given step with the individual instrument lines, BD for this one.

The mistake I made trying to test this before was that I didn't tie BD itself (the point between C14 and R1) to V+, I tied the TRIG input (the far side of the diode) to V+. That's DC, which was blocked by the cap, and so I got a very muddy mess of a trigger on accent, further messed up by the fact that the accent pulse was far wider than it ought to have been. I'm honestly surprised that it worked at all because I can't see how the second transistor got turned on if the first one was cut off (because the BD signal was wrong).


I think it comes down to how you want it to function, and I can see it working two ways.

1) as we have been doing it: tie accent to a level that corresponds to the accent level expected (spec says 4-14V, in practice for this variant of the circuit, more like 10-15V), and trigger on BD, with the conditioning circuit in front of it. This gets the sound, and doesn't require a continuously running clock of trigger signals. It's not the way it was done originally though.

2) as it was done originally: tie BD to high (or +5, or use an enabling signal) without the conditioning circuit, and send your trigger through accent, with an amplitude proportional to the accent value.

Honestly, I think like the german site, you can leave the BD point available to tie to, and leave it up to the implementer which of these two they prefer. Since you're using stripboards, that's easy, don't even really need an extra pad.

I expect to have time tonight (though without staying up QUITE so late) to test #2. Should be doable with the existing board, I'll just clip a lead to the cap or the resistor in the right place. I think my main concern at this point is that somehow it will trigger even when BD is tied to ground, but we shall see. In the previous test it would have been just floating, so not strictly tied to ground.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent. I am triggering through the accent now and have the BD input tied high. It works fine, possibly with a less prominent click but I'll have to make some more scientific measurements to confirm this. If I untie the BD input from the +V rail, the triggers going to the accent no longer activate the kick.

What I need to get onto soon is making a better sequencer. The one I am using is simply a Baby 8. I'm driving it with a 555 clock, inverting the clock signal to get a narrower pulse, and ANDing it with the 4017 output on each step. The output trigger is of unknown amplitude and width Laughing . It was made some time ago and needs to be replaced. I should get a scope onto it and see what kind of trigger it is spitting out.

I think you have summed it up with your two ways of doing this. I guess if you were just wanting to trigger this without wanting the accent feature, a simpler transistor circuit could be designed on the input. I think I'll go with your option two personally. If the click is less this way, I should try triggering those hats and cymbal similarly and see what effect it has.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Results with the "proper" configuration:

If the accent trigger goes all the way to 15V it bleeds through even when BD is grounded--I get a bit of rumble but no click. Sad If I set up a voltage divider so that it ranges from 4 to 14V it still isn't generating any sound below something significantly higher than 4V, I would bet more up at the 10V range. But at least the 14V peak doesn't bleed through.

I'm also not getting nearly the same rumbly decay that I was before. It's *there* but the level is much lower and you can hardly hear it with the click there on my head phones.

If I return to the previous method, it sounds much better to my ear.

Speaking of the click; with the "proper" configuration it was nearly distorted most of the time. After switching back, it was still distorted. If I drop the trigger into the conditioner from 15V to 5V, it's MUCH better. However, now the levels are low enough that I'm hearing some hum bleed through, so if I go this way, I have to find and fix THAT. Interestingly the hum was worse when I took the output off the 1K resistor correctly than if I take it before the 1K as originally wired. But it's still there either way. Touching ground doesn't help; it could be proximity to my laptop hard drive (cramped desk....)

I will try reducing the trigger pulse width and see if that helps any in both configurations.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmmm. It appears that our triggers might be quite different. As I mentioned, I'm able to trigger on the accent with my piece of crap sequencer, whilst the BD input is tied to +12V. I should really measure the trigger pulse and report findings. I wonder why you are getting bleed through, even when grounded? I'm using a beadboard circuit. Maybe there is something different there. I think it must be the trigger though. I've laid put the BD circuit again on stripboard. It's a smaller footprint than the last one. I might knock it together today and see what happens.

EDIT: Also... If this works the way we think it does, although that accent is getting triggered all the time, the BD point is what turns on or off the kick, and is not on all the time. Triggering with a programmed stream of trigger pulses on the accent and tying the BD point to + permanently is somewhat different. Perhaps this is causing the bleed through?
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is your testing turning BD on and off?

What voltage are you using for on?

I think I was getting bleed at 15V accent because that's above expected value, and blows through the circuit enough to cause the bleed through. Or that in combination with the fact that it was 25 times longer than expected as well. And who knows, perhaps my transistor subs have something to do with it too...I just remembered I'm using 547/557 rather than 546/556. While most characteristics seemed at parity, they do have lower voltage tolerance (40V max Vcb... or is it Vce? vs 80V for the 546/556 parts). I'm not *exceeding* their voltage ratings, but I'm probably a lot closer than you are. Aaand now I remember what I forgot to put on my latest Mouser Order Very Happy

I've shrunk my trigger (by a factor of 20, 1K down to 47R on the discharge cap of my 555 clock, but I haven't looked at it to see exactly how narrow it is. I'd expect somewhere in the 1.5 to 1 ms range though. Sounds decent, slightly different, but can't put my finger on it. Maybe less distortion in the click? Gotta get to bed for work tomorrow so it'll get measured tomorrow or later this week.

I also haven't yet tested the other way around with the shorter trigger.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My testing is this:

I am hitting the accent with a sequence of narrow trigger pulses, say: 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0. To hear the drum sound I tie the BD input to the +V, in my case +12V. If I untie the BD input from +12V; no sound... which I expect. Now if this were done correctly, I would be hitting that accent with narrow triggers of 1ms on every beat, and switching the drum on an off with a wider pulse on the BD input. Ideally I think we need a sequencer which will send a pulse to BD when required, hit the accent (common trigger) with the 1ms narrow pulse, then switch off the BD pulse as the step advances.

I just tested another way. I sent the narrow trigger pulse to accent and the BD input. That is firing the drum too.

When I think about this, it isn't all that different from my crappy sequencer. I 'anded' the clock and the 4017 step output so that I could trigger on subsequent steps. Without the 'anding' I was unable to trigger adjacent steps, say 1 and 2. Even then I found the 555 clock pulse was too wide so I simply inverted it. This 'anding' on the 808 is similar. The accent is the narrow trigger, and the BD input is a step. Yeah, I think I grok
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quick update... from the battle front.

I drew up a new layout for the kick drum, built it, plugged it in and it doesn't work properly. My old board has been hacked, or is it unhacked now. I've stolen the pots and removed the bend points or whatever they were. I now have no kick aside from the one on the breadboard. Sequencer down...

It's 4AM now, I need to retreat into my fox hole. Not sure what tomorrow holds... or even if there is a tomorrow. Yes I am in the thick of it once again... this three week campaign I wanted to avoid Laughing ... this quagmire. This electronic Vietnam.

Request urgent assistance, over.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK. So this new BD stripboard layout is working. I should prioritise a sequencer build ASAP. I've sent my (dirty) trigger signal through a cgs24 gate to trigger converter and I don't get the weird double trigger bounce. I think I'll add one of these to all my drum modules when they are behind panels, just to clean up the signals. Overall the kick sounds OK. I've replaced the 10K resistor across the tone pot with a 20K, reducing the click slightly. I'm hooking up the accent to +12V and triggering through BD input. Tests show I can tie accent and BD input together and trigger off that too. If I speed up the tempo, I need to watch the decay or I get that BOOOM boom BOOm thing occurring which as far as we know is normal behaviour. I'm going to leave it at that for the moment.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool Smile

Sorry I was out of the loop last night. This all sounds great.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good to hear you got it working thumleft cgs24 has always worked for me when i needed a clean trigger signal for conditioning clocks and drum triggers...
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