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Baby 10 Step Sequencer Problems
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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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Location: tucson

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Baby 10 Step Sequencer Problems Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Okay, guys. So I'm having a little bit of trouble with the sequencer I'm building.

Basically what happens is when I turn it on, the steps don't move forward. I don't know why this is having problems because I feel like I have everything set up in a way that it should work.

I have a clock in, where I've plugged in a square wave LFO from my modular to provide a tempo.

I've tried this on a breadboard using only LEDs to show the sequence and an input for the clock (no pots or anything), which I kinda got to work, the sequence would flash through the four different steps/LEDs I had set up, but it seemed kind of sporadic, and it would go through the steps quite fast...

Anyways, I've drawn up a non-traditional "schematic" (only because I feel like it's easier for me to explain myself this way, and easier for you guys to see what's going on from my point of view) and what I'm asking for is just any suggestions or critiques as to what I'm doing wrong. I really appreciate it, it would make me unbelievably happy if I could get this working correctly!

Attached is the schematic of my sequencer, if you have any questions about it please feel free to ask.

All grounds are connected to eachother and the (-) output of the battery, and pin 16 is directly connected to the (+) output of the battery, also, I'm using a 9v battery, I'm not sure if this is proper or not.

(1) - (10) and [1] - [10] are connected between the different diagrams (I.E. (1) is shown on one diagram, and on another. They're connected, I just didn't want to draw the connections directly because it would get too messy)
Please bare with me haha, I'm trying hard to learn this stuff, it's pretty damn complicated to me. Luckily I've picked up a book on the basics, I need to start getting into that...


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bubzy



Joined: Oct 27, 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you have no pulldown on your reset
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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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Location: tucson

PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for replying so quickly!

What's a pulldown and how would that be affecting the mobility of my steps? I read up a bit, does it basically put the pulse in the low position? I thought the purpose of the reset was to reset the sequence back to step 1.

And it is OK to run this schematic on a 9v battery then, correct?
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bubzy



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it would be a resistor from pin 15 to gnd, probably 100k.
basically for a 2 state input (high/low) it makes sure that the input is definately low when it is not high, if you do not use a pulldown resistor, the input "floats" and can give unpredictable results.

this can also work if you are triggering cmos with ground, in that case you would use a 100k pullup resistor for the same purpose.

hope this helps

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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Interesting, thanks. Will give this a try and report back with the results. I believe i had the pulldown resistor on my old board, but we'll see.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

besides the pulldown resistor on the reset there might be something else which will cause it not to step forward.
Quote:
I have a clock in, where I've plugged in a square wave LFO from my modular to provide a tempo.

what's the voltage your modular puts out ? it might be too low to CLK the 4017. And do you have the GND of
your modular also attached to the circuit ?

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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I used my multimeter to check the signal of the output on my modular.

The setting i used was at 20 V (the V with the straight line and dashed line over it). At the lowest frequency of the LFO it was reading -2.5 and then jumping to +2.5, at about midway I saw it jumping from the highest point of maybe 1.2 to the lowest of about -2.20. I am not sure at all how to read this...

I'll try looking into it to see if i can learn a thing or two about what that means.

I'm assuming the grounds of the modular and of the sequencer were connected to eachother through the 1/8" cord I was using. It connects to the + and - (which is connected to the ground on the modular) of the 1/8" jack on the modular, to the 1/8" jack connected to the + and - (connected to the ground of the sequencer) on the sequencer.

Do they have to be connected differently?

This next time I suppose i'll test it out with a 555 circuit instead and see how that works out, considering that's the most common timer used for the baby 10.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JAMESveeder wrote:
At the lowest frequency of the LFO it was reading -2.5 and then jumping to +2.5, at about midway I saw it jumping from the highest point of maybe 1.2 to the lowest of about -2.20. I am not sure at all how to read this...

that's probably right, depending on how slow you LFO was going.
first: you want to get rid of the negative voltage, CMOS doesn't like that.
this can be easily done by putting a diode between the input (signal from your modular) and the CLK pin
of the 4017,. you will also need to attach a resistor to GND to this pin.
second: your signal is too low to trigger the 4017, with a 9V supply you'll need a "high" signal of at least 6.5V,
and "low" below 2.5V. You could use a transistor but that would also invert your CLK (allthough I think it's
possible to not have it inverted). But what I usually do is a use an opamp configured as a comparator.
if you add an extra pot to this you can set the trigger voltage, nice for analog input signals Wink
(this might be useful for some more information)

Quote:
I'm assuming the grounds of the modular and of the sequencer were connected to eachother through the 1/8" cord I was using. It connects to the + and - (which is connected to the ground on the modular) of the 1/8" jack on the modular, to the 1/8" jack connected to the + and - (connected to the ground of the sequencer) on the sequencer.

Do they have to be connected differently?p

that sounds correct. You could attach the negative voltage of you rmodular to the - of your circuit
(which would get rid of the negative input voltrage) but it's a bit risky and you would need an extra wire to
supply the negative voltage. so better to do it like you did it now Very Happy

Quote:
This next time I suppose i'll test it out with a 555 circuit instead and see how that works out, considering that's the most common timer used for the baby 10.

yes, it would be good to test that first,. i'll bet you get it working that way Cool

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Bogus Noise



Joined: Jun 03, 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I spent a while building one of these up with a load of extra features... they can be funny at times, if things aren't exactly as they want them! I had things like it not stepping correctly if the step LEDs were drawing too much current because they had too low a resistor. Early in the testing I just used a push button connected via a 10k resistor to +ve, just to take the LFO out of the equation!

A 4011 oscillator will work much better at higher frequencies than the 555, and it's always fun to run a sequencer at audio rates Smile

You may also be missing a couple of diodes at points - should have one in between pin 14 and the rotary common point.

Fonik's Baby 10 schematic is excellent and provides a few handy extra bits to make using it that bit smoother.

http://modular.fonik.de/pdf/baby10.pdf

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is one minor error in that schematic.

In the reset circuitry, the second transistor (Q1) should be wired as an inverter, which would require grounding the emitter and connecting D48 to the collector.

I've discussed that with Fonik but honestly I'm happy he's spending his time on PCBs for Thomas Henry's latest modules rather than fixing old schematics Very Happy
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Bogus Noise



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, I didn't know about that, I didn't use his reset circuit. Good shout on pointing it out though!

Yeah, I think the Thomas Henry PCBs is a great use of time, his designs are excellent. Last week I bought the Electronic Drum Cookbook for inspiration on a commissioned project, can't wait to have get stuck into it Very Happy

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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all of the replies, guys!

So as of right now i'm gonna leave the clock in out of the picture, just until I can figure out how to get this working right.

I wired up the 555 timer to the board and it works...kinda. Haha.

I don't know how this happened, I was careful when soldering but certain LEDs don't light up, steps are out of order, and it seems as though step 10 does some weird stuff when it's on. The reset only works for like...4 different settings. It's quite odd, Im trying to upload a video for you guys just so you can all see what it's doing.

Almost there though!

Now that I look at Foniks schematic, I'm already finding errors in my step to pin connections...

How do you guys keep a clean PCB btw? Mine has so many wires coming off of it that it's hard to get to anything.
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Danno Gee Ray



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Same way you have a good looking and functional panel...do that first.

Put your I/O's on the erdges, design around that.
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JAMESveeder



Joined: Nov 16, 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the advice, i think next time around im definitely gonna draw the board out first, and also try directly mounting the pots to the board possibly? I dunno.

Anyways, I'm ALMOST THERE.

I've got every step working correctly except for 10... and I don't know why. I've checked all the connections and spots for it and they seem correct,,,

Also, I can't seem to get the reset to work...

The reset just needs to be routed to the step (Pin on the 4017, not the CV out) after the one you want to end on, correct?
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bubzy



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JAMESveeder wrote:
I've got every step working correctly except for 10... and I don't know why. I've checked all the connections and spots for it and they seem correct,,,

have you got a position on your rotary that connects to "nothing"? otherwise you will always be resetting on step 9, for 10 steps on a 4017 you will need the reset just tied to ground with NO voltage input (see pulldown resistor)

Quote:
The reset just needs to be routed to the step (Pin on the 4017, not the CV out) after the one you want to end on, correct?


correct

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JAMESveeder



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I have a 12 position rotary switch and 2 of the positions wouldn't be used, so are you saying that I absolutely must have those positions filled instead of going to nothing?

It seems to go through all 10 steps time wise, but all the pot does for that step is dim the LED when it's all the way up and allow for a slight pitch change.

Also I noticed that if the LEDs not connected to a step, the pot provides a MUCH wider range of frequency, which I much prefer to the way it sounds with the LEDs attached. Is there any way I could resolve this without getting rid of the LEDs?
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-minus-



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You could use superbright LED's if you aren't already doing so. Or you could increase the resistors on the LED's, although they will burn less brightly. Or you could use transistors on the outputs so the LED's are switched on via the base of the transistors.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

JAMESveeder wrote:
Well, I have a 12 position rotary switch and 2 of the positions wouldn't be used, so are you saying that I absolutely must have those positions filled instead of going to nothing?

no, you can leave them unattached. you could attach them to GND, but if you use a pulldown resistor on pin 15
(which is preferred) you can leave them open. With a 12 position switch you should actually have at least 3 unconnected positions.
because, as bubzy mentioned:
Quote:
..,otherwise you will always be resetting on step 9, for 10 steps on a 4017 you will need the reset just tied to ground with NO voltage input (see pulldown resistor)

so there are 2 unconnected ones because it's a 12 step switch and you only have 10 steps,. + another unconnected
one for the 10 step mode. And you don't need to connect Q0 to the reset switch. (see fonik's schematic).

Quote:
It seems to go through all 10 steps time wise, but all the pot does for that step is dim the LED when it's all the way up and allow for a slight pitch change.

Also I noticed that if the LEDs not connected to a step, the pot provides a MUCH wider range of frequency, which I much prefer to the way it sounds with the LEDs attached. Is there any way I could resolve this without getting rid of the LEDs?


I wonder how you connected the LED's, sounds like you have them attached after the pots. Or you have
a very low series resistor,. it's shouldn't have any effect especially not with only 1 LED on at a time.

good to hear you got it almost working btw Very Happy

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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
I wonder how you connected the LED's, sounds like you have them attached after the pots. Or you have a very low series resistor,. it's shouldn't have any effect especially not with only 1 LED on at a time.

the LEDs are connected in parallel to the potentiometers, but:
in the schematic i don't see any LED driving resistors at all
if the potentiometers in the schematic are shown from the rear they will work backwards

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JAMESveeder



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:

the LEDs are connected in parallel to the potentiometers, but:
in the schematic i don't see any LED driving resistors at all
if the potentiometers in the schematic are shown from the rear they will work backwards


Okay this is good, it's all coming together.

I was very eager to make this and very new -_-

I checked the potentiometers with my voltometer and got back some values that I thought would make the pots turn the right way, I soldered them all up and they're backwards haha, but that's okay I can live with that for now Razz

Now, I also forgot to add resistors to the LEDs when I made this, I didn't think it would affect the range of the pots but now I see that they're a very important component haha, so I absolutely will be adding those. Any suggestions for a resistance value? A range of a couple octaves would be wonderful.

I ALSO found out why I was having so many problems with the reset. Apparently when connecting to the reset, the pin can't be connected to the CV out at the same time...

So I may or may not have to rewire my entire faceplate. Hopefully not though, I have a few ideas brewing on how I can get the reset to work.

Thanks for baring with my n00bishness, I'm learning though! You guys have all been a great help so far, thanks a lot!
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Bogus Noise



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hehehe, as I said, I had problems with it not stepping correctly when I had too low a resistor on the LEDs Wink
I used a 1k in my build. You only need one resistor between the 8 of them, as only one LED will be lit at a time. So tie all the LED grounds together and put the resistor between the common point and ground.

Also, it may be worth building up a buffer board. Each output on the 4017 will be split between its connected pot and LED. If you connect another pot to each step, the 4017's voltage output is split between two pots and an LED. This leads to low outputs and interaction between the controls. At this point it's best to buffer each output of each step with something like a 2n3904 to get a more consistent and even output.

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fonik



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the thing is: LEDs are driven by current, not by voltage, thus you need to convert voltage to current using a resistor (ohm law). the only reason that your LEDs are not blown is that the CMOS 4017 does not provide enough current, i guess.
since there is only one LED on at any given time you can use just use one resistor for all LED - just tie together the negative end of the LEDs and route them to GNS via the driving resistor (i.e. 2.2k, depending on the voltage and the LED you use).

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JAMESveeder



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well thanks for the info haha, good to know for future reference definitely.

Anyways, if any of you are interested in seeing what it sounds like with my modular/what it looks like here's the video of me playing around with it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdlBQOApVkI&feature=share&list=UUZ8h5w01hZVbJ0Bj6D5Vrog

I can definitely get some interesting sounds out of it! I love playing with it haha.

To see what it looks like you can go to the end of the video, but yeah tell me what you think!
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