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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Alesis Andromeda
Andromeda and Ableton Live
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untinyunity



Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Andromeda and Ableton Live
Subject description: Sequensing the A6 with Ableton Live
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Hi

I'm new to this forum, and a new A6 owner. Im trying to integrate my A6 with Ableton Live. Everything works fine, but I cant seem to be able to playback panel moves such as filter cutoff knobs properly.

Filter 2 for instance records in Live as Midi CTR 6, 38, 98 and 99. But it doesnt playback properly.

On the A6 itself, keyboard thx mode is midi, panel recieve mode is on and transmit mode is locmidi. I have tried various settings here, and several midi interfaces.

The problem is the same in program and mix modes. In addition, in mix mode, filters on other channels than the active one jumps around a bit when trying to record panel moves.

Any tips?

Cheers, T
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untinyunity



Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

having this nice conversation with myself Rolling Eyes

Anywho tried it again today, i remembered I have an old copy of Logic installed. The panel record and playback worked just fine there, so I'll take my question to Ableton then Surprised

Thor
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blue hell
Site Admin


Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24079
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Let me say hi & welcome then at least ... but re. the Andromeda, sorry cant help you there.
_________________
Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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untinyunity



Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks!

Shocked Cant wait to understand some more about this synth Smile I'll post whatever answer Ableton comes up with here to the benefit of the community. I'll work around it by assigning stuff to ribbon etc as these controls seems to be working fine Idea
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sunny pedaal



Joined: Nov 16, 2004
Posts: 735
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i use cubase.
might try local off and then from computer-out back into the computer.
i mean when it sends, it maybe doesn't play back properly.
other thing to try is when a controller is send to the a6, and in the a6 a controller is dedicated to one of the 8 selectable cc's in the modsources ( A->H ).
if that works then it might be a problem of msb/lsb ( double cc's coupled to get a higher resolution as used in the a6 )
interesting !
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origin



Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just bought another andromeda after having to give back the one living with me for 5 years. (New in box, plastic still on the screen, wooo!)

So, I'm an Ableton guru, and I seem to remember cracking the code on the
"Recording Andy automation into Ableton" issue a few years ago.

I do know the following for sure:

1. Logic Pro seems to handle the automation better than Ableton live
2. You can get ableton to record and send automation data to and from the Andy, but I remember it being impossible to edit once you had.
3. There are some settings in the Andy that need to be configured for all of this to work properly (I will report back once I have accomplished this with a full rundown)
4. I seem to remember that you needed to utilize mapping functions (Like filter 2 cutoff, in your example) to a Midi CC for automation to function properly, meaning that you get 128 steps instead of full resolution.

Again, will report back with my findings as I will be going down this road very soon.

Thanks,

-Origin
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untinyunity



Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Posts: 6
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Origin Very Happy

thanks for your reply, I'll be looking forward to see your findings Idea

True, you can use MIDI mapping in the matrix of A6, but this doesn't really help in recording panel moves.

There is a "hidden" preference file in Ableton as well, where one might turn on MIDI thinning, or you may send thinned data from the A6, neither of this seems to help though.

But again, I'll be looking forward to your reply. Maybe MIDI implementation is going to be better in Ableton 9?

Cheers, Thor
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origin



Joined: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey there.

I am in the Live 9 Beta, so i'll try it in 9 as well and report back.

_origin
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gauthier



Joined: Sep 19, 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ableton Live doesn't seem to record the NRPN (which is bunch of 4 CC at once), which is quite a bummer.

You can check that forum post which seems to confirm that fact:

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=118222
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kcoul



Joined: Jun 10, 2017
Posts: 9
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am working on this problem as much as possible. Since Live 10 will add Sysex capability, I asked about NRPN:

Quote:


Ableton 10 advertises as coming with Sysex support. I wanted to make sure that this would mean Live would also now treat MIDI NRPN not as four Continuous Controller messages but instead like actual NRPN, able to natively record and play back correctly without workarounds such as

http://tetradev.blogspot.ca/2010/03/nrpns-part-2-nrpns-in-ableton-with-max.html

Can you confirm?


Reply:
Quote:
Hi there,

Thanks for getting in touch with Ableton support.

There have been no changes to the way that NRPN is handled. The only changes that have been made is to allow Sysex messages through Live's MIDI ports in Live 10.
Sorry about that.

Feel free to add this as a feature request on the Live 10 Beta site though. You can sign up for the Beta using these instructions: Live 10 Beta FAQ and add it as a suggestion in the "Suggestions" section on Centercode.


I am following suggestion as well as developing a workaround, but it will have latency and limitations (converting NRPNs to CCs for automation/sequencing in Ableton, and back to NRPNs for playback). As described:

Quote:
To review, Ableton currently treats NRPN messages as though they were four individual Continuous Controller messages being recorded simultaneously. As such, although data is recorded, it is not played back from the automation lanes in a way that allows the device receiving the data to respond correctly. In other words, NRPN doesn't work at all.

To work around this, many people have built devices to send NRPN to specific hardware devices, but none have yet built devices that can also record incoming knob/slider NRPN from the devices to Ableton automation lanes, and play them back in a way that works. So, I am building a generic Max4Live device that will work with all devices which require RPN/NRPN support to automate, mapping incoming NRPN datastreams to up to 32 14bit MIDI automation lanes that already work in Ableton (CC0/32 through CC31/63). When this regular 14bit CC data is played back from Ableton, the M4L device will reconstruct the correct NRPN message to send back out.

The downsides are that these lanes are no longer available for regular 14 bit CCs once hijacked by NRPN, and the latency that will be incurred when translating the MIDI data, while recording but especially while playing back multiple streams at once.

I think this feature could be implemented relatively easily within Ableton to eliminate the latency in the device I'll provide, and open Ableton up to a much larger amount of CC lanes that NRPN provides. It would require special treatment of CC98 and CC99, reservation of CC6/38, and implementation of running status to keep the datastream as thin as possible. Available operations to thin the recorded datastream would make this even more valuable, as the zipper effect is often noticeable with 128 values of 7bit MIDI, but 16384 steps of 14bit MIDI is not really needed either, it's a bit overkill. Doing this would allow for smooth playback of multiple lanes of automation on a single device. Alternatively, some hardware synths can thin the incoming datastream at the MIDI IN port but not all.


This will work for everyone upgrading to Live 10 as Max4Live will ship as a part of Live 10 for everyone, not as a paid add-on anymore.

Probable downsides:

- Probably will incur some latency. Recommendation here would be to start with TX Thin at extreme value on A6, listen for zipper effect etc, and then increase TX thickness until it goes away. Transmitting too dense data will be impossible to recover from as Ableton has no data thinning function and there's no way I'm going to implement that in the converter.
-- On recording side, chunks of CC automation could be group selected and moved back in time
-- Playback side is more of a problem. I'm going to have to get Running Status right to keep the total data flow rate as low as possible. Since the converters will be implemented as C-based objects in Max (rather than the higher level Javascript being used in the prototype), there will hopefully be many opportunities to optimize. The datastreams will just need to be funneled to the Data Entry MSB/LSB addresses, and reunited with their NRPN MSB/LSB prefixed pairings when Running Status recognizes that the status bytes are needed. As more streams are transmitted simultaneously, those status bytes will become more and more necessary all the time as the streams will be interleaving increasingly rapidly.
-- There will be a finite number of NRPN parameters that can be converted/automated in this way:
---Any value using 10bit resolution (like a knob) will need to be routed to one of the only 30 14-bit CC lanes available (since ModWheel will take 1 7bit lane and Ribbon will take either 1 14bit lane or 2 7bit lanes)
---Values not using such resolution (which I think is only buttons and switches, all knobs use 10bit if my understanding is correct) could be mapped to the other 64 CC values, but
----8 of these would need to be reserved as mod sources that the A6 accepts
----Some of these remaining 7bit lanes might be recognized by the A6 in fixed ways and thus unusable, I am not sure. Generally some the last few CCs are used for things like All Notes Off, etc.
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