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Panning
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redskull



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Panning Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Anyone who would like to indulge me, as I have not the time to go greatly into this, can help by posting up some data they have, or things they have learned, about the use of 'pan' in a track.

I have been hearing LARGE amounts of panning overkill in some modern releases lately, and I am wondering what the best use of this niftyness is...

Anyone? discuss Twisted Evil
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Panning? In the sense of placing a voice somewhere in the soundfield?.. or letting stuff swoosh about like bats on crack?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Panning Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

redskull wrote:
I have been hearing LARGE amounts of panning overkill in some modern releases lately


Which ones..?

Personally I prefer to record absolutely every voice in stereo. This does not mean that all the voices will be panning wildly around.. but rather that I have imagined some kind of "space" for them all. This works fine for me. I am however not a big fan of stereo phasers.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Active panning ... I don't know, I think it came into music as a sort of a psychedelic gadget at about the same time it became possible to do so ?

It can work as a nice contrast to statically positioned sounds, but it can sort of drive you nuts when applied fast and heavly. It's just a special form of volume dynamics, sometimes it works in a piece of music to modulate the volume.

Just listen if it works for your music in some way I'd say.

Jan.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh I forgot ... I like to use audio rate panning in G2 patches quite often - give s an AM type of sound that can't bee located - just like crickets can't be located very well when being near, well I can't.

Jan.
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am a fan of mono or 'near-mono'....in a layered mix, it creates a density that creates a sense of space that is 'deeper' than a hard panned stereo field.

but even then i like to sneak in curious sounds here and there somewhere hard left or right

but i am not trying to emulate a soundspace or a 'soundstage'...the best way to do that, is to record in stereo in an actual space..

and i also find stereo panning can be gimicky, especially in a multi-track situation where the sounds are not actually being performed at once live in a room...,

also panning to the left 'ear' and right ear, it is not really a representation of reality, becausewe don;t hear in stereo.. but i think the term is 'binaural' [correct me if i am wrong]

but, i think a well-balanced mix that was recorded in a space using a stereo mic is the closest thing we have to 'the real thing'..and no panning needed

i also feel the same way about reverb

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zynthetix



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

overall, i like stereo a lot. visual art has "space" as a fundemental aspect of the medium....with stereo, at least a little bit of the "space" aspect can be implemented through recorded music. (stereo still doesn't compare to dolby 5.1 in this regard.)

for conventional stuff, i think the foundation of a song (bass, snare bass drum, main vocals for example) are best front and center. Things like other drums, back-up vocals, etc. can be implemented very nicely with small amounts of panning left or right, making a nice spatial effect.

however, if something is blazing through a lot of rhythmic sounds and textures at 200 bpm or something crazy...bring the pan on. making a "melody" out of tuned percussive sounds and having them ricochét furiously left and right is what i like to call "ear-candy".

i guess implementation of pan varies with context and taste. I do recommend using it at least in a subtle way, other-wise the recorded music isn't all that 3-D.
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

zynthetix wrote:
making a "melody" out of tuned percussive sounds and having them ricochét furiously left and right is what i like to call "ear-candy".



that is a cool technique...and i like it, not because it is attempting to imitate a 'real' space, but you are using panning to create a special effect inside your own artificially created sound space...

like, redskull said, it can be very nifty...

i think people get into trouble with panning when they are trying to create the illusion that all instruments/sounds existed together is some real room or real space [when they did not], and use panning to imitate placement in a soundfield

but panning can be useful to create 'un-natural', synthetic soundfields or other 'ear candy'

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Dovdimus Prime



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I use pan mainly to provide clarity. A nice wide stereo field is like an exploded diagram, making it easier to understand what's going on in the music.

I really like a part with some randomly modulated pan, it's kind of like something crawling around on your head.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dovdimus Prime wrote:
. A nice wide stereo field is like an exploded diagram


that is a very interesting and useful description...

[ admins - can this topic be moved to 'production' sub-forum ]

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Roland Kuit



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From what i learned, i love pannig, becease it gives space to a composition. But the kick drum and bass don't need panning. This sound will float. So for more melodic stuff, your in the right direction. A nice factor will be reverb. So left panning, right reverb and otherwise. You can get some wicked things out of this. Or pan your reverb, Delay. Etc.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Panning is just one aspect of spacialization. To me, spacialization is a very critical aspect of electronic music that distinguished it from other musical arts. An electronic sound without spacialization is hardly complete.

There are many techniques for spacialization. Panning is perhaps the most obvious one, but it is very useful nonetheless. I like running a mono signal through a left and right comb filter or phase shifter. Ther resulting stereo field is very rich and beautiful.

Another technique that can be used is to frequency shift the left and right by a very small amount. This can be interesting because it changes the brain waves in the listener. Be carefull with this one.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:


Another technique that can be used is to frequency shift the left and right by a very small amount. This can be interesting because it changes the brain waves in the listener. Be carefull with this one.


that is interesting...esp. the altering 'brain waves' concept

my lack of knowledge makes me ask, what is a 'frequency shift'... ?

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Mohoyoho



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Panning is just one aspect of spacialization. To me, spacialization is a very critical aspect of electronic music that distinguished it from other musical arts. An electronic sound without spacialization is hardly complete

I agree with Mosc. Electronic music usually doesn't mimic real life. It's uniqueness and unearthliness is one of its drawing points. Spatialization is another tool to use to whatever end you are trying to reach.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

paul e. wrote:

that is interesting...esp. the altering 'brain waves' concept

my lack of knowledge makes me ask, what is a 'frequency shift'... ?


A frequency shift is achieved by running the signal through a multiplier (or ring modulator) circuit. If you modulate a signal with a 0.25 Hz sine wave, then you get out a signal that is shifted up .25 Hz and another one shifted down .25 Hz. It helps to have a multiplier that can provide a separate output for the upshift and downshift.

If you route the upshifted signal to the left and the downshifted one to the right (or visa versa) then you perceive a very slow panning at about one pan every two seconds, or 0.5 Hz.

As for the brain waves, if you play two frequencies separated by say 10 Hz in each ear with headphones, it turns out the the brainwaves will gradually sync to 10 Hz. See http://www.centerpointe.com/forums.html?page=product&sub_page=research1 and other links.

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Research supports the theory that different frequencies presented to each ear through stereo headphones . . . create a difference tone (or binaural beat) as the brain puts together the two tones it actually hears. Through EEG monitoring the difference tone is identified by a change in the electrical pattern produced by the brain. For example, frequencies of 200 Hz and 210 Hz produce a binaural beat frequency of 10 Hz. Monitoring of the brain’s electricity (EEG) shows that the brain produces increased 10 Hz activity with equal frequency and amplitude of the wave form in both hemispheres.


There are many people cashing in on this fact by making healing and relaxation tapes and CDs. I've done a lot of experimentation with this using the G2 which makes it easy to do. I take all the claims that these things make you heal and make you smarter with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure that for most people, the brainwave sync stuff really does work.

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mohoyoho wrote:

I agree with Mosc. Electronic music usually doesn't mimic real life. It's uniqueness and unearthliness is one of its drawing points. Spatialization is another tool to use to whatever end you are trying to reach.


this is a great point... 'up or down, left or right'... ? it's hard to know

i hear this a lot in your music, mohoyoho, and other ambient forms...a 'space' where direction and spatial concepts are not the same as 'normal' space..

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
paul e. wrote:

that is interesting...esp. the altering 'brain waves' concept

my lack of knowledge makes me ask, what is a 'frequency shift'... ?


A frequency shift is achieved by running the signal through a multiplier (or ring modulator) circuit. If you modulate a signal with a 0.25 Hz sine wave, then you get out a signal that is shifted up .25 Hz and another one shifted down .25 Hz. It helps to have a multiplier that can provide a separate output for the upshift and downshift.


wow..that is a level of spatialisation that i had not yet considered..

this will require some experimentation...i assume i have a DSP programme on my machine that could execute the same effect...

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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

***Pain jumps up, stamps his feet and slaps his thigh like a redneck whilst chanting like an excited prep school pupil witnessing his first fight***

bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!
bat's on crack!

...reaches for an old autechre album...
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing
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morbius



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The way I see it... I've been a studio engineer since the mid-70's. And one thing that I've learned that should probably be the very first rule in nearly every aspect of recording is "Less is more". This certainly applies to panning. The overuse of anything is not good.

These days, I record all electronic music, synths, etc. With modular synths, there are just some times when voltage-controlled panning is almost 'required by law'. This doesn't have to be with a simple oscillator modulating back and forth... it can be panning with the keyboard (the voltage controls the spacial location - or - the amount to one channel vs. the other). This is also true using an analog sequencer to control the panning. I also enjoy using both sync'd and non-sync'd delay panning... but then, I don't drink enough, either.

Another interesting panning effect is using a lowpass for one channel, and highpass for the other.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Recently I was recording a gread piano with two cardiod pattern condenser mics. They were mounted next to each other right near the opening - where a singing would stand in a piano/vocalist recital. The result has very nice subtile spacialization. The bass tends to come from one side and the treble from the other. Morbius's high-pass low-pass trick might do similar things for synth sounds. Good suggestion.
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renevanderwouden



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Panning Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

redskull wrote:
Anyone who would like to indulge me, as I have not the time to go greatly into this, can help by posting up some data they have, or things they have learned, about the use of 'pan' in a track.

I have been hearing LARGE amounts of panning overkill in some modern releases lately, and I am wondering what the best use of this niftyness is...

Anyone? discuss Twisted Evil


listening to a quality classical record with a big orchestra. You will hear the natural panning of all the instruments. Nothing sits in each others way.

Gustav Mahler's "Symphony no. 2" for example.

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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

on a more serious tip to my bats on crack remark...

my favourite panning method is.

2 equal mono signals, one in each channel (left and right)

delay the signal on the left channel by a few milliseconds and the right signal disappears. neat panning. you can do all sorts of interesting stuff with subtle equalisation and delay panning.
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