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Kyma/Capybara
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LLR3



Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 41
Location: Helsinki Finland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: Kyma/Capybara Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I´ve recently been seriously thinking of getting myself a Kyma/Capybara system as it seems that there really isn´t anything else in the market that meets my requirements for a realtime DSP/audio system.

I wish there was an open forum for Kyma/Capybara related topics but it seems Symbolic Sounds´ own forum is restricted to registered owners. I wonder if there are other active forums/e-mail lists for Kyma users and others interested in the subject?

My Background

After learning Yamaha DX7 sound programming inside out and using the DX7 with a basic PCM soundmodule and Atari Cubase (the prehistory part) I started programming non-realtime audio synthesis systems from scratch. I´ve written a "full featured" programming language for audio synthesis, with an optimizing compiler and all, in the past. Then, while slowly recovering physically and mentally from "doing it the hard way", I started using (and gathering...) studio gear. After doing the analog desk (realtime mixing and composing) thing for a while I started dreaming of being able to do similarly intuitive hands-on things but with wildly different tools and techniques. Synthesis-wise Clavia modulars have illuminated the path, but otherwise have proven to be more of an obstacle than the ideal tool for achieving my ultimate(?) goal.

Possible Alternatives

Non-realtime systems (my own, CSound etc.) set aside there are a few (seemingly) possible alternatives to the (hugely expensive!) K/C system. For my purposes, software synthesis systems running on regular CPU´s and on multitasking non-realtime operating systems are a definite no-no. My percussion controlled dreams would turn into nightmares with all the latency and (non-)operating system issues. That, I guess, rules out many otherwise quite capable systems such as PD and Max variants, Reaktor, realtime versions of CSound, Tassman etc. Perhaps if someone made a booting, stand alone (or 32/64-bit non-multitasking "DOS") version of one of those and preferably so that the actual synth engine was running on an isolated second core of one of those new dual core processors, then perhaps that would (could) be worthy of closer examination... Or maybe one of the upcoming "super CPU´s" (Cell etc.) will bring true realtime audio processing into ordinary desktop PC´s of the future. Who knows...

On Other DSP Based Alternatives

Well, DSP hardware you can get, but these things seem to come and go and I can´t really see any (de facto) standards/common platforms forming. There are numerous "open" systems and in many cases complete sets of programming tools and documentation have been made available to anyone interested, but unfortunately it seems that on most of these SDK´s only very low level dev tools are included and there´s not much to build on. (Such a shame Clavia modular architecture is not open for users´ enhancements!) Some of the previously closed, proprietary systems have been opened at least to some extent, but sometimes the SDK´s have been lacking in documentation etc. (Yes, I´m talking about Creamware stuff!)

Back To Kyma/Capybara

Yes it is VERY expensive. But piling up the money for a basic K/C system would anyway take just a fraction of the time needed to create anything as useful (even just for my own limited purposes) from scratch by myself. But would it (the K/C system) meet my needs and demands? How do I know without trying out the system? I wonder if there is anyone here in Finland who has a K/C system? I wouldn´t really want to write any MAJOR parts of the software myself so the basic system should be pretty comprehensive. Well I´ve heard Kyma is just that, but perhaps it´s still lacking in areas that are important to me. I COULD order the book (though I´d prefer having it for free as a pdf file!), but without trying out the software (I wouldn´t mind if it didn´t make a sound) I´m not sure if I could make the decision.

One thing that I´m a little worried about is the lifespan of the current Capybara hardware. Especially the expansion cards seem overpriced and underpowered compared to other manufacturers´ recent offerings. If the processing power of twelve Capybara DSP´s compares to eight Clavia G2 DSP´s and two DSP expansion cards (eight DSP´s) for the G2 costs roughly about 800 euros and six expansion cards (twelve DSP´s) for the Capy about 2800 then I guess the edge that the Capy DSP expansions have over the G2 expansions by having more memory COMES WITH A PRICE! I can understand that the Capybara hardware is not exactly a mass market item and this makes it more expensive to manufacture, but should it really be THAT expensive? (Especially the expansion cards I mean...) Financing the development of software by selling overpriced hardware seems a little odd to me...

I wonder when Symbolic Sound are going to release a new version of the hardware? I wouldn´t really want spend my hard earned cash on a system that gets superseded the very next week...

*LLR3
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you familiar with Linux at all?

I've been hacking at a stand-alone, Live-CD type distribution, that is purely for synthesis. So far I'm working with Knoppix as a base, since it it very well documented and has served as a base for so many other live-cd distros.

This project for me has just recently begun (unoffically). However, it is really a matter of getting the base system working with Audio/MIDI, and tuning the video to be either minimal, or running in command-line only. Video GUI (X-server), by the way, can be switched on & off by the user, at any time, without rebooting, or stopping currently running programs. Start up the GUI for some editing, then stop it when you want absolute timing (if running the GUI ruins it, it may not). That's the idea, anyway. The Linux Kernel has been tuned for real-time, pre-emptive (user programs can override system tasks) abilities, and has a great scheduler, as far as OSes go.

This would give you a platform for Pd, SuperCollider, and the many other programs (like Csound) that are also available. Anyway, in theory, it'd never be out of date, since you can always replace the hardware with faster processors, more memory, etc. This is what I'm aiming for at least, and am hoping it is running in 3 months or so.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LLRC, that is a great post.

I have a Kyma system. I'm not an expert user, though. You are right about it being expensive, but it's top notch professional grade gear. Kyma systems are used in many expensive Hollywood movies. The Capybarra his 4 or 8 very high quality audio channels - digital and analog. With up to 28 DSPs, it is the ultimate processing/sound card. Smile

Kyma only works with the Capybara. It's called just the Kyma system - the Capybara part is always understood.

The Kyma user interface is unique. There are many tools. The Sound Editor has some of the attributes of a graphical module based system like Reaktor or the Nord Modulars. But it also serves as hierarchical programming environment. The richness of the types of modules is emmence. Not only are analog synthesis type modules, but sample processing stuff by the ton. There are real time format analysis and resynthesis capabilities. There are modules that do morphing. You can process sound in the time domain or in the frequency domain.

In Kyma, the modules and samples, everything, is called a sound. Sounds can be as simple as a sine wave generator for an compostion. The can be generators or processors. Sounds can be of programmable duration.

The system is very open - nothing is hidden. You can write code and integrate your own algorithms - at any time level from the sample level to the composition level. You can create the ultimate real-time audio processor - totally customizable and transformable.

Another tool Kyma has is the Timeline. Timelines look like tracks, but they are much more. Timelines contain Kyma sounds, and pipelines of sounds. The flow of time can be fixed, like a drum machine, or totally flexible and under user control in real-time. It's a unparaleled realtime performance environment.

The learning curve is steep. Crying or Very sad

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LLR3



Joined: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 41
Location: Helsinki Finland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
Are you familiar with Linux at all?


Well not really. I must admit that I have some sort of a personal problem with modern operating systems. Long gone are the days when computers did what they were told to do - these days it´s not really the user/programmer that makes the final decisions, it´s the operating system.

I´m such kind of person that either I want to know EXACTLY what´s going on under the hood or I don´t want to know ANYTHING AT ALL about it. If I´d have to pick an OS (and wasn´t allowed to pick my favourite: Commodore VIC-20 "OS"!!!) I´d pick two of ´em (greedy as I am): Mac OSX and FreeDOS32. (Currently I´m using a windoze PC for web surfing etc., but I´ve been thinking of getting a Mac Mini...) I feel that GNU/Linux does not "just work" - at least not in its present state, but instead it requires a lot of skill, knowledge and hard work from the user to work reliably.

I know that I SHOULD learn GNU/Linux as I REALLY REALLY like all this copyleftism and all that´s been brought to this world by the free software movement and I VERY HIGHLY appreciate the community for what it´s achieved so far. It´s just that this sort of HIGHLY complex open (and all over the place...) systems don´t suit my personality because I guess I´m an ultimate control freak and wouldn´t probably come back sane if I really went deep into the labyrinth...

jksuperstar wrote:
I've been hacking at a stand-alone, Live-CD type distribution, that is purely for synthesis. So far I'm working with Knoppix as a base, since it it very well documented and has served as a base for so many other live-cd distros.


I think I´ve heard of some music/synthesis oriented live-CD - I´m not sure, but it might have been a distro called dyne:bolic (http://www.dynebolic.org) or perhaps a special version of it. Never tried it myself though.

jksuperstar wrote:
This project for me has just recently begun (unoffically). However, it is really a matter of getting the base system working with Audio/MIDI, and tuning the video to be either minimal, or running in command-line only. Video GUI (X-server), by the way, can be switched on & off by the user, at any time, without rebooting, or stopping currently running programs. Start up the GUI for some editing, then stop it when you want absolute timing (if running the GUI ruins it, it may not). That's the idea, anyway. The Linux Kernel has been tuned for real-time, pre-emptive (user programs can override system tasks) abilities, and has a great scheduler, as far as OSes go.


You mean you´ve been tuning the kernel or that the new kernel versions are tuned by default? Not long ago the standard kernel had to be patched with a set of realtime patches in order to tune it for realtime operation. Perhaps these patches have been integrated into the standard kernel since then?

jksuperstar wrote:
This would give you a platform for Pd, SuperCollider, and the many other programs (like Csound) that are also available. Anyway, in theory, it'd never be out of date, since you can always replace the hardware with faster processors, more memory, etc. This is what I'm aiming for at least, and am hoping it is running in 3 months or so.


Hmm, I didn´t know SuperCollider was available for other systems than Mac OS. Now I see there´s even a windoze port of it available! I´ve never studied this system more closely - how does it compare to the other systems you mention here?

Yo, I´d Like To Know How Low The Latency Can Go!

Yes, how low can it go on a PC A) in theory / using a non-multitasking system with interrupts off, B) on a realtime Linux kernel C) on other kernels?

I agree, I would be ideal not having to use any special hardware besides a regular PC. It´s really all up to the latency issue. I have no idea how unpredictable the behaviour of modern CPU´s is exactly. I wonder if it would be possible to create a system with (almost) zero latency so that the whole synthesis algorithm cycle would get calculated in less than for example 1/96000th second on EVERY cycle?

*LLR3
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Perhaps these patches have been integrated into the standard kernel since then?

As of Kernel 2.6, these patches are part of the kernel. However, when building the kernel, they still need to be "enabled".

Quote:
Yo, I´d Like To Know How Low The Latency Can Go!


Tough to answer! But, if your familiar with BeOS, the combination of pre-emption and low-latency patches have sped Linux past BeOS, once considered the "fastest" consumer operating system (aside from hard-realtime OSes).

BTW- Dyne:bolic is nice, but is compiled to run on as many (older) systems as possible. So it's not tuned for the latest processor improvements. But it is made for networking, video, audio, and other multimedia apps. AGNULA and Planet CCRMA seem to be the "standards" when it comes to Linux Audio. AGNULA happens to have a LiveCD, so the time to download & run it (if your hardware works with it Smile ) is all it takes.
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LLR3



Joined: Sep 10, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I have a Kyma system. I'm not an expert user, though. You are right about it being expensive, but it's top notch professional grade gear. Kyma systems are used in many expensive Hollywood movies. The Capybarra his 4 or 8 very high quality audio channels - digital and analog. With up to 28 DSPs, it is the ultimate processing/sound card. Smile


Capybara-320 hardware was released in 1998. Has there been any discussion on new hardware being under development? I´m mainly after the software that I´ve heard is quite remarkable, but as I said before, I wouldn´t really want make such a great financial investment on a piece of hardware that gets superseded by a new model just a couple of days later.

mosc wrote:
Kyma only works with the Capybara.


So the software does not even start up without the hardware? It´d be nice if it could be run without the hardware connected in the same fashion as the Clavia Modular editors can. Anyway, if it can´t, it can´t.

Is there any other way of getting detailed information on Kyma besides ordering the book?

mosc wrote:
It's called just the Kyma system - the Capybara part is always understood.


Understood.

mosc wrote:
The Kyma user interface is unique. There are many tools. The Sound Editor has some of the attributes of a graphical module based system like Reaktor or the Nord Modulars.


You´ve stated that you prefer using the G2 over Kyma. Is the "patching" process a lot more time consuming on Kyma than on G2 or what exactly is the reason that you prefer using the latter?

I´m a little bit worried that the approach Kyma takes on sound design might be too "scientific" and DSP orientated for me. (This is just a fear - I don´t really know much about the system.) The thing is that I´m much more after having absolute CONTROL over audio generating and transforming components than I´m after actually CREATING those components. Clavia G2 would be quite ideal for my use if it had two enhancements: 1. a programmable control module - a fully programmable module for processing control and logic signals (not audio) 2. some way of wrapping several inter-connected modules into single "units".

I must say I really like the intuitiveness of patching on Clavia Modular editors as long as nothing very complicated needs to be created. I wouldn´t want to give that up.

mosc wrote:
But it also serves as hierarchical programming environment. The richness of the types of modules is emmence. Not only are analog synthesis type modules, but sample processing stuff by the ton. There are real time format analysis and resynthesis capabilities. There are modules that do morphing. You can process sound in the time domain or in the frequency domain.


Can you connect anything to anything as you can on G2 or NM, or do the "connectors" need to be of same type etc?

How does sampling work on Kyma? I guess the host computer is used to store the sample data on its hard disk etc. and probably the Capybara box cannot even be used as a stand-alone machine the way Nord Modulars can - am I right?

mosc wrote:
In Kyma, the modules and samples, everything, is called a sound. Sounds can be as simple as a sine wave generator for an compostion. The can be generators or processors. Sounds can be of programmable duration.


This sounds(!) like the kind of modularity that I´m after and that I feel the Clavia creations are lacking.

mosc wrote:
The system is very open - nothing is hidden. You can write code and integrate your own algorithms - at any time level from the sample level to the composition level. You can create the ultimate real-time audio processor - totally customizable and transformable.


Are there any other tools in the package besides DSP assembler for developing realtime code? Smalltalk sounds like something that´s less ideal for realtime processing.

mosc wrote:
Another tool Kyma has is the Timeline. Timelines look like tracks, but they are much more. Timelines contain Kyma sounds, and pipelines of sounds. The flow of time can be fixed, like a drum machine, or totally flexible and under user control in real-time. It's a unparaleled realtime performance environment.


What´s the resolution of the timelines? Can both audio and parameters be placed on timeline "tracks"? How many simultaneous tracks can be used? Can the timeline pointers be flexibly modulated?

I feel the lack of proper tools for parameter control is one of the biggest problems on Clavia modulars. If the timeline implementation on Kyma is flexible enough, it could perhaps be the solution to some of my deepest personal problems...

mosc wrote:
The learning curve is steep. Crying or Very sad


But do you think it´s possible to work intuitively on Kyma once you´ve learned the basic skills?

Thanks, *LLR3
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LLR3 wrote:
Capybara-320 hardware was released in 1998. Has there been any discussion on new hardware being under development? I´m mainly after the software that I´ve heard is quite remarkable, but as I said before, I wouldn´t really want make such a great financial investment on a piece of hardware that gets superseded by a new model just a couple of days later.



Symbolic Sound has an incredibly generous trade in policy. I can't speak for them about what they will do in the future, but a month after I bought my Capybara they came out with a new model. I was given a very generous upgrade offer, so good that I didn't feel bad.

Quote:
Is there any other way of getting detailed information on Kyma besides ordering the book?


If you are serious about even considering a Kyma, you should order the book. Then many of your questions will be answered.

Quote:
You´ve stated that you prefer using the G2 over Kyma. Is the "patching" process a lot more time consuming on Kyma than on G2 or what exactly is the reason that you prefer using the latter?


I grew up patching modular analog synths. I think of sound design in those terms. I find the G2 almost effortless to patch. It has a rich set of modules. It's beautiful. The Kyma is much more powerfull, but I've yet to feel as comfortable with it. I hope to have a breakthrough someday soon.

Quote:
I´m a little bit worried that the approach Kyma takes on sound design might be too "scientific" and DSP orientated for me. (This is just a fear - I don´t really know much about the system.) The thing is that I´m much more after having absolute CONTROL over audio generating and transforming components than I´m after actually CREATING those components. Clavia G2 would be quite ideal for my use if it had two enhancements: 1. a programmable control module - a fully programmable module for processing control and logic signals (not audio) 2. some way of wrapping several inter-connected modules into single "units".


Those of valid concerns about the Kyma. If you want total control, Kyma will give you that.

True, the G2 hasn't got hierarchal modules, but you can build a lot of neat control structures with it. It has logic, muxes, demuxes, switches, comparitors and sequencers. You can do a great deal. Don't see it short on that. Still, you can't do everything. It does respond to midi, so I use external programs with I want to get really fancy.

Quote:
How does sampling work on Kyma? I guess the host computer is used to store the sample data on its hard disk etc. and probably the Capybara box cannot even be used as a stand-alone machine the way Nord Modulars can - am I right?


Yes, you are right - you must have the computer connected, but this gives you a great deal of power.

Quote:
Are there any other tools in the package besides DSP assembler for developing realtime code? Smalltalk sounds like something that´s less ideal for realtime processing.


SmallTalk is very good for what it is used for in Kyma. I think it was a good choice. Not everyone knows it and it's not used widely, but it works with Kyma and it is good for realtime control.

Quote:
What´s the resolution of the timelines? Can both audio and parameters be placed on timeline "tracks"? How many simultaneous tracks can be used? Can the timeline pointers be flexibly modulated?


The timelines can be resolved to very small intervals, perhaps as short as a sample. I don't think there are any hard limits to the numbe of tracks. They can be grouped into what is equivalent to submixes very easilly too. Controlling the timeline is fabulous. There are makers that you put down that will wait for events (like MIDI signals or detected envelopes or pitches). You can jump back an forth to any place in the timeline instantly.

Quote:
I feel the lack of proper tools for parameter control is one of the biggest problems on Clavia modulars. If the timeline implementation on Kyma is flexible enough, it could perhaps be the solution to some of my deepest personal problems...


The Kyma combines the synthesizer, processor, and DAW into one integrated system. The G2 is only a synthesizer.

Quote:
mosc wrote:
The learning curve is steep. Crying or Very sad


But do you think it´s possible to work intuitively on Kyma once you´ve learned the basic skills?


Yes, I know it is. I know people who are very comfortable with the Kyma system. The fact that I'm not comfortable with it is not because the system is limited, it's more because I am. (Or maybe I just have so much fun with the G2 that I don't focus too much on Kyma. (Or maybe it's just that I spend so much time on this forum that I don't have time for the Kyma.)).

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I emailed Symbolic Sound a month ago asking for a very basic piece of info:

What is the bus speed of the Capybara?

I have yet to receive a reply. They used to have a reputation for responsive customer service.

As for Linux, an electronic music composer and performer, and longtime Linux user, that I respect recently reported that he switched back to Slackware. After trying other Linux distributions, he feels Slackware, with pre-compiled audio packages for it from www.audioslack.com, is the best for music. This is what he had to say about Agnula:

One thing I can say from experience--stay away from DeMuDi (Agnula), a Debian
based distro. I found it very un-customization friendly, and had problem with
hardware recognition for my old Toshiba Portege laptop, particularly with
recognizing my legacy Yamaha opl3-sa2 card that comes in the Toshiba.


fwiw,
MG
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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicalGirevik wrote:
I emailed Symbolic Sound a month ago asking for a very basic piece of info:

What is the bus speed of the Capybara?

I have yet to receive a reply. They used to have a reputation for responsive customer service.


Yes, they have great customer service. They have a customer forum.

Email gets lost. I never trust it 100%. Maybe you'd have better luck if you tried them again.

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ersatzplanet



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Kyma/Capybara Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

LLR3 wrote:
I´ve recently been seriously thinking of getting myself a Kyma/Capybara system as it seems that there really isn´t anything else in the market that meets my requirements for a realtime DSP/audio system.

*LLR3


I responded it another thread on this forum about the Kyma so will be repeating myself here. The only problem I had with the Kyma I had, that resulted in my selling it, was the time delay between the modification of a patch and the playing of it. Every time you add or delete a process (a module) or change a patchcord, the new patch has to be re-compiled and downloaded to the Capy to play it. I had the firewire interface (a MUST in my opinion) and even with this faster interface it was a few seconds waiting. This may not be a problem for most people, but I am the type who adds and removes modules all the time to try out things and it got to be a drag for me. That and the fact that you had to have the computer running to play it. The footprint in the computer was small, like the Nord editor, so that was not a problem, just sometime you want to just turn on the box an play. The sound creation possibilities are quite huge with the Kyma. Many very extraordanary sounds and effects can be made with it. Many movie and game sound designers cannot live without it. I was always amazed why it did not compile as fast as the Nords do though. Maybe because of the complexity of the processes I suppose.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Kyma philosophy is a bit different from the NM. True, you need to have a computer connected for the system to run and the compilations take longer, but the result seems to me that they get much more sound generation capability out of the DSPs. It is an engineering trade-off. Good thing to mention in this kind of thread though. Thanks...
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