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Simple but fun bleepy machine
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK so I have progress, led lights up everything powers up just no volume I hooked up a 5ohm speaker and no sound.

I am using the following:

TL074 both ic's
R5-8 are 48k
R3-4 are 39k
R1 is 1k
C4 is 100n
C5 is 10n

From my understanding I should still get sound.

Thanks for all your help.
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elmegil



Joined: Mar 20, 2012
Posts: 2111
Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To drive a speaker directly, you need a power amplifier. Look into "Ruby" amplifiers built with the LM386 for some examples. Otherwise, plug it into amplification gear -- a mixer, a guiltar amp, etc. (but always start with the level at zero Smile )
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh I see, I saw a headphone jack and figured any old speaker would work...

What you say makes perfect sense, I have both mixer and guitar amp so I will swap the speaker to a plug like it indicates... Boy just goes to show that reading and research are important.

Thanks again for answering my very silly questions. Embarassed

Again you all have been a big help
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I must be doing something wrong, not getting much sound at all if anything it just crackes, if I get the pots just right it just makes a beep rumble.

Time for a rebuild I think, or I might just move to something a little simpler till I can get my head around it.
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elmegil



Joined: Mar 20, 2012
Posts: 2111
Location: Chicago
Audio files: 16

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So with stripboard... make sure none of your cuts are causing shorts to adjacent traces. Double check that all the connections are to the right traces (I'm really good at "off by one" errors where I make the jump one too far or one short of where it ought to be).

Then verify your power (do + and - rails have the right voltages?).

Then verify the signal path to see whether you see what you should at various points. Is the LFO generating a signal at its output? Is the VCO?

If you don't have a scope, the easiest way I have found to verify oscillators and signal path is to take an extra jack, solder some wires to it, clip ground to the ground point and poke it where I want to listen with a cable going to my mixer/amp. In this case with the two grounds, I would use the circuit virtual ground rather than the headphone ground.
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Troubleshooting tips:
1. Use a multimeter to check the battery voltage when not connected (should be about 9V), then connect it up, turn it on and recheck (should not drop by much, say 0.2V at most). If it drops too much look for shorts.

For the following checks turn the circuit on with all the pots about midway. The LED should light up Smile

2. Check the voltage on the actual IC pins - pin 11 on both ICs should be exactly equal to Battery Negative. Pin 4 on both ICs should be exactly equal to Battery Positive. There are 12 pins that should all be at exactly 0V, ie approx 4V above Battery Negative, but the main thing is that they should all be exactly equal to each other - IC1 pins 1,2,3,9,10,13 - IC2 pins 5,6,7,9,12,13 (I think). If any of these pins is not steady at exactly the right voltage then look for poor solder joints or bad wire links in the vicinity of the problem pin.

3. Turn all the pots to midway and use an amplifier to listen directly to actual IC pins (keep the volume low) - IC1 pins 6,7,8,12,14 - IC2 pins 1,2,3,8,10,14 - these 11 pins should all be oscillating so you should hear something. The LFO (IC2 pin 14) may be oscillating too slow to hear, but if you spin P6 this way or that it should speed up to audible. Alternatively you might be able to see the voltage on a multimeter swinging this way and that for that pin if the LFO is oscillating slowly.

4. With your multimeter check the voltage between each pair of adjacent tracks, up and down each side of the board. Apart from the ones that are meant to be connected - you should see some kind of voltage difference from one track to the next. Don't worry about what voltage you see except where you see no voltage difference - then check carefully for slivers of copper or blobs of solder shorting things out.

5. With your multimeter check the voltage between the pin or wire on the component or wire link and the copper track it is meant to be soldered to. Should be 0V in every case. Wiggle it a little bit too. Any voltage at all and resolder that joint.

If the problems are widespread, then sort out any power supply problems first, then check that the ICs are in the right place and round the right way. Once you have those basics sorted hopefully you can narrow things down to a finite number of discrete issues. Be aware though that if you have powered things up with the power round the wrong way or the chips in the wrong way then you have probably cooked them and may need to replace the ICs.

Anyway, once you have checked all those IC pins to see which ones are at the correct steady voltage and which ones are oscillating as they should then you should be able to pin down where the problem is.

Nicolas
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just read your resistor values - R3/4 need to be pretty close to half R5/6 - the values you are using are too close. If you don't have the right values for R5/R6 then use two in series of whatever you are using for R3/R4

Nicolas
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just to be completely clear:

If R5-8 are 48k then use R3-4 = 24K (not 39k)

Or if If R3-4 are 39k the use R5-8 = 78K (not 48K)

You can make 24K with two 48K resistors in parallel.
You can make 78K with two 39K resistors in series.

Either option should work. But what you have currently definitely won't.

Nicolas
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nicolas3141 wrote:
Just to be completely clear:

If R5-8 are 48k then use R3-4 = 24K (not 39k)

Or if If R3-4 are 39k the use R5-8 = 78K (not 48K)

You can make 24K with two 48K resistors in parallel.
You can make 78K with two 39K resistors in series.

Either option should work. But what you have currently definitely won't.

Nicolas


Thanks for that!

I have been away for work so i apologize for the long response.

I will give this a go in about 20 mins, i have this bread boarded so simple swap i will take option 1 and make R5-8 78k as i have fair few 39k resistors.

will let you all know how i go, again thank you for the help.
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well change of resistors helped i used a 83k resistor as i dint have time to test with the 2 39k resistors in series, this is will do over the weekend.

i have noticed that the second sound playing the high end sounds are very quiet, i will get a recording of the current setup and post in the next day or so.

thanks again everyone.
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, What an awesome little machine!!!

This thing is off the hook Nicolas!! I love it, nice deep basses and nice even highs, love the wave sound it makes, the possibilities are endless.

I currently play this via a bass/guitar amp, as that was the connector i had at the time, i have just gone to jaycar to get a bunch of resistors and some more caps and a few LM IC's while i was there i got some RCA connectors so i can run this into my mixer then into PC!

As soon as i have made a few changes to the resistors on my bread board and changed the audio out connectors i will make a quick recording of the sounds that i am producing.

I have a schematic for an old 8 step sequencer that normally would go with an Atari Punk Console, i have adapted it to be a single unit on its own. My question is would this simple bleep maker work with an 8 step APC sequencer?

I currently only have the 8 step on paper so as soon i as i draw it up on PC i will post it here so you can have a look if need be.

Again thank you Nicolas for the AWESOME design, and thank you to everyone else that helped me get this done!
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject:  Sound Sample of Nic's Bleep Machine Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound Cloud Audio of Nic's Simple Bleeper.

Recorded direct to PC via Sound mixer. At the end after the higher sample sounds it takes a second or 2 for the basses to kick in.

https://soundcloud.com/citezyne/simple-bleep-machine-sample

also be warned it can get a bit loud, and for some reason sound cloud added a strange bubble sound effect to the audio Mad
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DUBmatze



Joined: Feb 18, 2013
Posts: 150
Location: south Germaica (schwabilon)

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Sound Sample of Nic's Bleep Machine Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Citezyne wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/citezyne/simple-bleep-machine-sample

also be warned it can get a bit loud, and for some reason sound cloud added a strange bubble sound effect to the audio Mad
ty for posting a Demo!
(i realy hate the 128k downcoding on Soundcloud... but the bubble sounds good to me Wink )
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nicolas3141



Joined: May 25, 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hooking it up to a sequencer is not hard at all. Look at how P4/R7 and P5/R8 both feed into C5 in parallel. Add another pot/resistor combination that also feeds into C5 in parallel with the two feeds that are already there. Lets call your additional feed P7/R11. R11 is a resistor of around 70-80k (same R5-Cool. P7 is a pot of around 50-100K. The wiper of the pot connects to R11. The bottom end of the pot connects to 0V. The top end of the pot connects to your external input - from the sequencer or whatever. Exactly like the way P5/R8 bring in the LFO feed and pipe it into C5. Should work well. Let us know how that goes : )

Nicolas
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The top end of the pot connects to your external input - from the sequencer or whatever. Exactly like the way P5/R8 bring in the LFO feed and pipe it into C5. Should work well. Let us know how that goes : )


I was thinking on using a baby 8 or 10 type setup however they use the 555 timer to generate the sound in a timed manner as pointed out to me in another topic i posed in found here http://electro-music.com/forum/post-408102.html#408102

I did read over the thread but found allot of what was talked about a little over my head, being new to this and all. Would i be able to replace the 555 timer with your bleeper?

I see that the 555 timers output on pin 3 goes to the Clock pin for cycling and input, would i be able to replace the 555 timer with something else that allows me to use your bleeper with the extra pot? if i remove the timer i lose the timing cycles so i would need to replace that I'm guessing.

I will also be posting a pic soon of the final bleeper in its box and all.

Thanks again for your help!!
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi again. You need some sort of clock to cycle through the eight steps of the 4017 IC on the sequencer. That is what the 555 is doing. It is essentially a low frequency oscillator (LFO). It doesn't produce sound at this speed really. Every time the output of that 555 clock turns on and off, the 4017 decade counter cycles one more step through its output pins.

Those output pins have a potentiometer on each. This enables us to "dial in" a voltage or turn a voltage up or down on each step. These steps all flow into a single output on the sequencer. As the steps cycle, the output voltages are activated one at a time in sequence. This is fed to your Bleepy Machine. The Bleepy machine uses this external voltage to change the sound of it in some way.

If you don't have the clock on the sequencer, then you will need some other clock method such as another LFO to do this.
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RIGHT!!

Thank you Minus, in effect the bleepy machine comes after the sequencer where the sound is then changed to the bleepy machine sound?

So what i would do is feed the output from the baby 8 into the bleepy machine in the method that Nicolas has suggested?

the 555 still does the job its supposed to do except the other way around than what i expected.

Regardless i have started to build your shipboard version with all add on's, i have my case and all other gear ready to go, with the exception of the mods i need to do to my original bleepy machine.

Thanks for the clarification.

Minus would you like me to post this in your topic as well as it is related to your sequencer?
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-minus-



Joined: Oct 26, 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The 555 is not being used as a sound producer. If it were running at a higher rate, those ON and OFF pulses of electricity could be pulling and pushing a speaker cone and give sound. This is a simplistic way of looking at it. It's like clipping some cardboard on your bike forks as a kid and making motor sounds as the spokes click on the card. The faster you pedal; the higher the pitch.

In this case the 555 is running a lot slower and is being used to switch a voltage ON and OFF thus advancing the steps on the sequencer.

If you hooked up a voltmeter to the output of the sequencer, you would notice the various voltages you have set on each of the eight potentiometers, stepping through in sequence. This voltage in itself is not a noise as such. It is used to 'stimulate' (for want of a better word) a setting on the Bleepy Machine. It is a way of automating a particular knob on the Bleepy Machine. Instead of having a knob turned on the Bleepy Machine by you manually, the sequencer will do that for you. It will run through eight separate knob settings in an order, then repeat if need be.

This is a very simplistic way of explaining it. I'm sure some of the smarter people on here could do a more scientific job. Laughing If you build the sequencer as it stands and hook it up as nicolas suggested to the Bleepy Machine, it should work.

Yeah, maybe the sequencer related stuff should be in the relevant thread...
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Citezyne



Joined: Jan 09, 2015
Posts: 24
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Nick.

sorry for the long delay in response.
however i seem to ve having some issues with Minus' 8 step sequencer.

i have a few questions about how to wire it all up. you mention a 0v for the low end of the pot however i am not sure how to identify where that is. also for minus' out put he connects the negative to his cv out. should i be connecting that to the negative for my circut in your bleepy machine?

other than that i love this maching works great and makes some totally unique sounds. i will post a picture of the final box after i have intergrated the 8 step to work correctly. you can find details of the issues im having in minus' post here http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-52774-100.html
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nicolas3141



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zero volts is labelled 0V on the bleepy schematic and is available on multiple tracks of the stripboard - most of the pots have this on one pin. If the sequencer has nothing labelled zero volts then connect the zero volts of the bleepy machine to the negative wire on the sequencer. Connect the sequencer output voltage to the new VCO pot on the bleepy machine as I described before. Don't try and run both circuits off the same battery or power source until you fully understand the voltages within both circuits.

Nicolas
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Citezyne



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thank you Nicolas for your response.

i now have a better understanding of what i need to do, thank you. just as a point i am running the sequencer off a 9v regulated wall pack and the bleepy machine off a 9v battery. both are in a box of there own and are intended as modular and interchangeable.

i have included a picture of what i have created with your wonderfull design.


20150923_204521.jpg
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20150923_204521.jpg


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jclassic1



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand that this is a very old thread but I have just started to get interested in electronics and would really like to build this item.
My present level of experience only amounts to assembling the Atari Punk Console on a breadboard but to my surprise it actualy works.I have also built a 386 amp on the same breadboard so as to hear the sound thru a speaker.
As pleased as I am with my success to actualy make something work I am now looking to add to the abilities of this sound unit and this circuit seems to be ideal for a beginner like me.
I need to ask a couple of questions if I may.
When you mention mounting the pots on the copper side what actualy do you mean.Do you mount the rest of the components on the other side thru the holes and solder to the copper strips on the othe side.
I have used quite a bit of veroboard(stripboard) in the past so enjoy soldering but can this circuit be built on a breadboard for testing.I am sure to make some mistakes along the way and on breadboard they are easy to fix.
I am retired now and the old eyes are getting tired but my enthusiasm is just as strong as ever.
I do hope others are still reading this thread as these type of projects are hard to find for beginners.

John
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PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome party!

Quote:
When you mention mounting the pots on the copper side what actualy do you mean.Do you mount the rest of the components on the other side thru the holes and solder to the copper strips on the othe side.

yep, that's what it means. You could mount them on the other side but then they function in reverse (CCW/CW)
note: the image shows the top side of the board (not the copper side)

Quote:
But can this circuit be built on a breadboard for testing.

As long as a circuit isn't high voltage/current/frequency you can most likely built it on a breadboard, so that's a yes.

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jclassic1



Joined: Apr 14, 2019
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Location: derbyshire,UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for replying.
So the pots hang under the board with the shafts facing out and the rest of the components are built on top of the board.Great I have got that now.
I think my breadboard is large enough to build this circuit on and it would be better as a beginner to be able to correct any mistakes I am likely to make.
I look forward to getting the bits together and giving it a go.

Thanks

John
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PHOBoS



Joined: Jan 14, 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the idea is to mount the pots so that the shafts point upwards*, that way you can easily mount it behind a panel.
I always recommend breadboarding a circuit first if possible. It can help you to understand the circuit as you can
test different sections, but it also makes it possible to experiment with it and maybe come up with some modifications.


* edit: should be downwards

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Last edited by PHOBoS on Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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