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 Forum index » Discussion » Diversity in electro-music
Muff Wiggler: Sexism in Audio Cultures
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seraph
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Muff Wiggler: Sexism in Audio Cultures Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know if it has already been posted but... I post it anyway

arrow Muff Wiggler: Sexism in Audio Cultures

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thankfully there seems to be a lot less of that here; on the other hand, possibly because there's a lot less of everything here :/
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

heh you should see the misbehaviour going on in the chatroom at times,.. tits everywhere. Laughing

here's a pair of great tits:
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A good read, thanks for sharing. I find this kind of stuff generally depressing.
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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Note that there was a rebuttal posted by a female user of the forum in the comments section:

Quote:
Juliana Jaeger says:
April 19, 2014 at 11:11 pm

Myself being a female user of Muff Wiggler, all I can say is that misogyny and sexism within the modular synthesizer community is mostly in the imagination of the beholder, particularly if that beholder cherry-picks content out of context for the sole sake of having something over which to be irritated.

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If people really want to debate the situation, there are ample opportunities to do that over at Muff's.

I will point out though that there are women who publicly stand up and claim the USA has no problem with misogyny in our public sphere as well. Doesn't make it so.

I think that what's there at Muff's is a reflection of "Internet Culture" as well as the broader social issues of the day. I also think Muff's is quite exemplary in being LESS of a mirror of those problems than MANY boards out there. But that doesn't mean there's not a current there too--quite the opposite, it would be amazing if it were not.
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Skrog Productions



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmmm, I was disappointed .
With the magazines name , I was expecting to view pretty, 8 - 10 denier pastel shade blue nylon , preferably with a descrete all over pattern of dots or bows Smile Smile , but instead there was just a human that did not understand V=I R & ohms laws associated equations.
Razz

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GovernorSilver



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This forum, the Fiddle Forum, and the one for Steve Albini's studio (forgot the name) are the three least sexist I've seen. People here seem to be cool, so I guess that's the reason - yes there's low foot traffic but signal quality is high.

Fiddle Forum has so many female users anybody wanting to be sexist would not survive long there.

The last one, well it's brutally self-policing when it needs to be.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for posting that link. I replied on that blog, directing the author to check out our forum, where everyone is welcome and where we are actively trying to promote a diverse community.

BTW, I'm also a member at Muff's, and he is a member here. We cooperate and support each other. The community is bigger that a single forum - we all know that.

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LFLab



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lousy article IMHO, sexism is there if you really want it to be, but in general, I think the muffwiggler forum is A LOT more female friendly than forums on any number of other topics, gaming, off roading, hunting.
I just wonder why the Muffwiggler forum got singled out.
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe because it was the forum being looked at? Because the author had a specific interest in the topic?

I'm sorry but the "we're better than other places" argument, while quite obviously TRUE, doesn't really change or eliminate the sexism that's there.

"But your honor, it was only a little assault and battery, it's not like I murdered anyone, can you just let me go free?"

Not quite clear what the point is in dragging up this topic 8 months later either. Muff's is down, so you have to find something to complain about?
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LFLab



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elmegil wrote:
Muff's is down, so you have to find something to complain about?


Not at all, it's just that I came across the article a few days ago, and remembered the discussion on Muffs.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some forums don't like resurrecting old threads. It's OK here, for some reason it's appreciated by some of us. Sometimes it's interesting to get new perspectives after some time has passed.

I was concerned to hear the Muff's was down, but I just checked and it's not. Good news...

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AlanP



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

They've had a major overhaul, everything is a lot zippier there now.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can't say that I have been over there. I might have been as part of a search that landed me to a specific thread. I have seen people mention the site before, and it never dawned on me that the name was (1) an overt sexual reference or (2) potentially offensive.

Now that I know, I cannot unlearn that knowledge.

Earlier today I mentioned old fashioned car radios to my sons and drew a connection to radio buttons as used in software. I light bulb went off. "So that's where the name comes from!!" exclaimed my son, the computer scientist.

Such is the nature of knowledge. It may be there all the time, but until someone calls attention to it, we might never know.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To be fair, Muff is the name of a pet cat that the forum was named after.
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Demi Jon



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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The discussion continues. In a thread titled 'Women who (should) modular', in which posters were encouraged to list female artists who they'd like to hear on modular synths, the thread descended over the course of only one page into feminist-baiting, objectification, and masturbation jokes.

One of the female posters got very angry about it, and started another thread in which she vented about her disgust at the treatment of women on the previous thread.

While some folks supported her, there was a fair amount of 'if you can't take a joke'/'thin skin' -type dismissiveness. The site-owner initially showed concern, but this was actioned by setting up a 'name and shame' thread for outright intimidation and abuse. While this is perhaps a good step, it does nothing to acknowledge the more nebulous general vibe of the forum, which is potentially unwelcoming/unsafe-feeling. The unsavoury aspects of this environment are more the result of a general atmosphere of male privilege, and is therefore harder to codify into abuse or intimidation (i.e., one person acting threatening vs a bunch of guys talking about hot chicks and masturbation). This complaint thread was finally locked after a meltdown from the site owner when I called him on referring to those of us on the feminist side as 'fascists' (for the second time -- though when I tried to find the first thread in which he dropped that choice insult, I saw that that entire thread had been deleted).

It's a shame that every time this issue has come up, it ends with female forum members leaving in disgust, the mods being dismissive (though some seemingly less so) and the site owner feeling threatened and responding aggressively. It's been coming up more frequently though, so hopefully it will result in change. My hope is that they will institute a rough guideline in which posters are simply reminded to be courteous, considerate, polite and respectful.

(side note: mosc, the site is not named after the site-owner's cat. It's named after the Electro Harmonix 'Big Muff Pi' and 'Wiggler' guitar pedals)
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm so glad I've stopped reading so much on the site and spend more time talking to people on Facebook. I did see some idiot dismissively bringing up "SJWs" in a TOTALLY unrelated thread with zero context, so I ignored him. It's so tiresome, and I don't really understand how it is Mike doesn't get it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elmegil wrote:
I'm so glad I've stopped reading so much on the site...


I'm undecided as to whether I should just back off, or keep advocating for change. As the site owner, Mike, has now called me an 'idiotic f***ing troll' and told me to 'f*** off', I'm not sure how well-received my attempts will be.

It was very heartening this morning to discover that electro-music has an entire 'Diversity in electro-music' subforum!
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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's clear that folks who think the status quo is just fine have Mike's ear and he's convinced that he's being attacked for no good reason. There are other people in the community who I have more respect for than Mike who seem similarly oblivious about gender issues, despite having close friends who advocate for feminism. Not sure what more could be done about that which would be productive.

Unless you're prepared to try to split away from Muff's and start something new (or try to drag more folks over here, though in the last big blow up with Nelson Baboon on this topic, I mentioned it being better here but didn't see a lot of migration), I can't see how you can do anything but back off or be banned. It's a lousy set of choices in any case.
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AlanP



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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

John Gabriel's Greater Internet F***wad Theory at work, I guess. Plus some people have no brain-keyboard filters.

A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots.
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

AlanP wrote:
A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots.


Definitely true. What's frustrating though, is that it's the site owner, one of his mods (who also works in the MW shop), and an inner circle of their high-posting mates who form a sort of 'don't-be-so-bloody-sensitive' firewall.
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just stick to the DIY section of the forum, works fine, much gentler atmosphere.
Do feel that the problem is made way bigger than it really is, topics like this are always used as coathangers for pseudo philosophical discussions and name calling.
I actually don't think that "brush it off" or "look elsewhere" is such a lousy choice, it actually works for the whole of the internet.

"A forum with as many users as MW, you're always going to get idiots."

This!
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elmegil wrote:
...despite having close friends who advocate for feminism.

I've not really spent any time in the MW forum and am not calling you out in particular, but I'd just like to ask the following question about 'feminism' and 'sexism', in the context of the wider debate...

Which 'feminism' are we talking about here, exactly?

Back in the late 1970s / early 1980s, as I was entering adulthood, feminists were telling us that women were mens' equals and in no way the 'weaker' sex. Having been raised with a somewhat more 'traditional' (shall we say?) view of womens' 'place' in society, this concept took a little getting used to, but I eventually accepted it and - I must say - have had my life enriched by it, especially in the workplace.

But now, 'feminism' tells us that women are 'vulnerable' and 'in need of protection', thus promoting the idea that they are somehow the 'weaker' sex - an idea which I had previously been led to believe was 'sexist'.

Then there was the twenty-something lady I was chatting with last year, who described herself as a 'neo-feminist'. When I asked what this meant, she replied, "It means I don't have a problem watching porn!"

And we both laughed. Together, as equals, we laughed.

So I'll ask again: Which 'feminism' are we talking about here, exactly?

I'm asking because I'm confused and because I'm starting to get fed up with feeling like I have to walk on bloody eggshells all the time, in case I cause 'offence' to someone and end up having my entire personality and life judged on the basis of a single remark.

Can someone please help me?

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are plenty of other places on the net where you can ask that question if it's an honest one. This is the wrong forum for that discussion, and the way you have couched your question seems pretty loaded and likely to only lead to flame wars. You clearly are asking a lot more than for me to define my terms.
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