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Jason
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA
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 Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject:
MIDI sync unstable |
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While on the subject of sync, I notice when syncing to external MIDI clock I see the "Master Clock" BPM read out fluctuating in real time with the incoming midi data. Changing from anywhere to 5-7 BPM, anotherwords all over the place. 
On occasion I have noticed clicking using the delay's also synced to EXT. clock. I am guessing that the unstable MIDI clock is to blame?
Question is if it is the G2 that has the problem or is it coming from the source which is as follows ->
Nuendo using RME fireface
Has anyone else noticed this?
Thank You,
Jason |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18240
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 224
G2 patch files: 60
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject:
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Many people have noticed this. Hardware devices are apparently more suitable to use as a master MIDI clock than programs running on general purpose computers. In any MIDI setup, finding the best device to use as a master clock can require some experimentation.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff |
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Jason
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:24 am Post subject:
Emulated Ports |
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Well it turns out that my problem was that my MIDI ports were showing up as 'Emulated', So contacting RME I have the following fix and now my MIDI clock fluctuation is only 1-2 BPM as opposed to a max 7...
Hopefully this can be useful info for someone.
| Quote: |
Hello,
this should solve the issue of "emulated" MIDI ports:
********
MIDI port filter - Important note regarding MIDI Interfaces
Cubase SX / SL version 1.02 or higher has a function to filter out
redundant MIDI ports provided by the MIDI interface driver. For instance
if the MIDI interface driver installs both Windows MIDI ports and
DirectMusic ports, these ports used to both show up in former Cubase SX
/ SL versions. Since DirectMusic mirrors the Windows MIDI ports as
"emulated" DirectMusic ports by itself, it was possible that the MIDI
ports showed up even 3 times in the MIDI device list in Cubase SX / SL.
These multiple appearances of the MIDI ports were actually "multiple
versions" of the same physical MIDI port.
To avoid this, Cubase SX / SL 1.02 and higher provides an option to
remove these redundant entries utilizing the MIDI port filter. However,
in some cases the non-filtered, left over MIDI ports that will show up
in the MIDI device list of Cubase SX / SL can be the ones that actually
do not work as the MIDI interface driver doesn't support the DirectMusic
architecture as Cubase SX / SL would expect.
These cases were for example found with the following MIDI Interfaces:
- MIDIMAN MIDIsport 8x8
- MOTU MIDITimepieceAV
In this case, you can re-enable the filtered MIDI ports by proceeding as
follows:
- Browse to the Cubase SX / SL application folder (usually
C:\programs\steinberg\cubasesx)
and locate the folder "MIDI Port Enabler"
- Open this folder
- Pick the file "ignoreportfilter" and move it into the Cubase SX / SL
application folder (one directory up)
- Start Cubase SX / SL
Now all available MIDI ports provided by the MIDI interface driver will
appear in the MIDI device list of Cubase SX / SL. Please be aware that
the MIDI ports now can show up 2 or 3 times in the list. If you're used
to manage your MIDI IN by setting "All MIDI Inputs" in the MIDI IN
selector, you should go to the Device Setup/All MIDI Inputs and disable
the unwanted ports. Otherwise you will record MIDI from multiple ports
which results in double MIDI notes.
***********
Regards,
Daniel Fuchs
RME |
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deknow
Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:13 am Post subject:
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i think that you would see that even a cheap drum machine (hr 16 or something) sends out a stable midi clock (not within 1-2bpm). computers are lousy master clocks, and should be treated as such.
deknow |
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Jason
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:48 am Post subject:
agreed |
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I totally agree, it is to the point of absurdity actually.
And to think how little bandwidth MIDI uses let alone
MIDI clock... |
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jksuperstar
Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
Location: Denver
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 18
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject:
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It's not really the bandwidth, its the computer's (or more accurately, the OS's) ability to do something at some exact moment. This is what differentiates a typical "desktop OS" from a real-time OS (which is further broken into "soft" and "hard" real time). If you are running windows, you can open the task manager, and rtight-click a task to put it in real-time. This can be dangerous, as the application could now use bandwidth used by the system...for access harddrives, etc. Linux has done LOTS of work over the past few years in real-time and low-latency plugs to help the OS become more "accurate" in its timing.
It's because of this fact, that audio I/O uses buffers, and if you make your buffer too small, the OS can't get out the audio in time, and you'll start hearing skips, or worse, noise. It would be very smart to use the G2 (or other hardware) as your clock source. If everything happened only in the computer, the buffers would ensure that whatever the PC put out on the audio ports, it was always time-aligned because the audio-card then has extremely accurate timing as it shuffles a buffer through the DACs. Start mixing MIDI, audio ins, and audio outs, and you have to play the game of buffer sizing and system tuning. |
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Jason
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:
sync |
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jksuperstar, Thanks for the info, you make some really good points.
I am wondering though for some suggestions on implementing
using the G2 as master clock. If I have the G2 set as master ,
first of all Nuendo to my knowledge doesnt sync to Midi Clock just MTC and 9 pin etc. So that would require me to just be recording and then editing my audio tracks etc? Basically I am not understanding how the G2 would then be synced to the beats within the computer. Even if I used an external hardware clock like a drum machine etc it would be on its own time and in no way related to the computers bars and beats within the editor.
I am sorry if I am just complicating this issue so please bare with me.
I just want to have this set up in a functional way.
Here is what someone mentions in another thread.
This however is assuming you are even using a sequencer in a patch, unless I am misunderstanding this as well. What if using a simple synth pad patch that you want the LFOs to sync?
| The Why Project wrote: | On my old micromodular, I used the following trick, and I suppose that
on the G2 it will work perfectly too:
Set the synth to follow it's own internal clock, at the same tempo as
your software sequencer.
Set up a note-detector to detect a note that you don't use in your
composition (most of the time you won't play all notes on the keyboard
anyway...).
Send the output of the note-detector to your clock-module (or your
sequencer) reset. If you now send that particular note from your
sequencer software, every 1 clock-cycle (bar), you will reset the
sequence to the start.
This will keep the sequences rather tight (more so than an instable
midi-clock!). Even if you start your sequencer and the modular at the
same time, running the same tempo, they will drift. This method doesn't
cost much dsp, but eliminates the drift.
Greetz,
The Why Project |
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The Why Project
Joined: Dec 05, 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Ireland
G2 patch files: 3
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 1:35 am Post subject:
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| Jason wrote: | What if using a simple synth pad patch that you want the LFOs to sync?
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Use LFOB, with the clock source set to "Internal". Now retrigger the LFO
by using the note-detector-trick, (send that signal to the RST input on the
LFO). And voila, sync!
Same trick, slightly different implementation.
Regards,
The Why Project |
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mattp
Joined: Apr 30, 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Thame, UK
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 1:37 am Post subject:
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I also had a problem with the Midi Sync and my Nord Mod G2.
This time from ProTools LE using a Digi002r and a MAC. The bpm would skip about +/-5, which was very annoying to say the least.
The stange thing was that I had an Edirol UM-1x that I use to control my original Nord Mod from the MAC. So I tested that doing the Midi sync from ProTools and the BPM on the G2 stopped skipping and the display was fixed.
So I bought another UM-1x and use that for midi sync all the time. |
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King Rat
Joined: Mar 11, 2005
Posts: 98
Location: London
Audio files: 5
G2 patch files: 13
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject:
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Just as an experiment, I tried running Logic without my FW410 interface and running the MIDI signal from Logic straight through my MIDIsport 2x2 USB-MIDI interface to my G2...
Lo and behold the BPM interpretation is really steady and the patches sound like they should do. No need for note detector fixes etc. Could there be an issue with running MIDI through the M-Audio FW410 (which also sits in a firwire chain after my external hard drive)? Is there some bandwidth issue perhaps given that the same firewire port is dealing with hard disk recording and audio signals?
Glad that I've found a solution (I think - will have to test further) although now I have to work out how to free up USB slots or buy a hub. The Logic dongle is a pain.
Angus |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004
Posts: 24419
Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 297
G2 patch files: 320
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject:
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From what I remember ...
The original MPU 401, which was an early usable MIDI interface for PC, had a driver that was able to arrange for MIDI clock. This feature tended to be used in software like cubase.
Given that windows XP still has visible traces from even the CP/M operating system it wouldn't surprise me that the MIDI driver can have a large influence on the beat stability, and the driver is coupled to the card.
Jan. |
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mattp
Joined: Apr 30, 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Thame, UK
G2 patch files: 2
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 12:45 am Post subject:
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Cool. The Digi002r is a FW connected device as well.
| King Rat wrote: | Just as an experiment, I tried running Logic without my FW410 interface and running the MIDI signal from Logic straight through my MIDIsport 2x2 USB-MIDI interface to my G2...
Lo and behold the BPM interpretation is really steady and the patches sound like they should do. No need for note detector fixes etc. Could there be an issue with running MIDI through the M-Audio FW410 (which also sits in a firwire chain after my external hard drive)? Is there some bandwidth issue perhaps given that the same firewire port is dealing with hard disk recording and audio signals?
Glad that I've found a solution (I think - will have to test further) although now I have to work out how to free up USB slots or buy a hub. The Logic dongle is a pain.
Angus |
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Jason
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles, CA. USA
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:56 am Post subject:
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and so is my RME Fireface...  |
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