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Radio and surround
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Radio and surround Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I got this one some weeks ago.

The questions raised are interesting.

here goes..
Quote:


Fra: mcnichc@WMIN.AC.UK
Emne: [BBC-HISTORY] Research query
Dato: 11. april 2005 10.38.12 MET
Til: BBC-HISTORY@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Svar til: BBC-HISTORY@JISCMAIL.AC.UK

This request was passed on to me by list member David Hendy. Please
remember only reply to the list if that is what you want to do, otherwise
reply to the individual.
anthony



Dear Professor Anthony McNicholas,

My name is Cristiano Magi and I'm a student of Radio Studies in Siena,
Italy, under Professor Enrico Menduni.

I have to thank Professor David Hendy, that gave me your name and told me
contact you.

I am ready to start writing my final thesis for my degree on the topic
Spatiality in Radio: 5.1-Surround Systems and Radio Language.

I'm researching documentation and I was hoping you could help me. I'm
looking for science papers and also for an unusual point of view. I know
it's hard to find, but I am trying.

I saw on the Internet that the BBC have done something with 5.1 in BBC 4.

Professor Hendy wrote me that you are the moderator for
the 'BBC History' web discussion list- so that you could possibly pass my
query to up to 200 people working on
aspects of BBC history.


If you know of any books, web-sites or other material that could be
helpful for my work, please let me know. I think that you are the best
person to assist me.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

All the best,
Cristiano



Cristiano Magi

cristiano@ideorama.it
(+39) 339 4509767 - Italy
(+34) 617 951429 - Spain





radio.. in surround??

Do we really need radio in surround? Is it possible to do this well? And how? Is it possible to create a consistent experience.. can radio in surround get to immersive? Do we need more coffee?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/cdi/cdi103.html

HDC Surround is a new 5.1 channel audio solution for HD Radio.
Built on top of the HDC codec already used by HD Radio, HDC Surround will enable stations to efficiently upgrade their HD Radio broadcasts to 5.1 channel surround sound while maintaining audio quality and compatibility for stereo-only receivers.
Built by Coding Technologies, the brains behind the superior performance of the HDC codec already in use by HD Radio, HDC Surround adds true 5.1 channel capability to HDC.
By building on HDC, HDC Surround provides a unique solution for backward compatible 5.1 surround sound over HD Radio.
This feature allows stations to upgrade their broadcasts to HDC Surround without negatively impacting their core stereo signal.
With the HDC Surround system, stations and receivers only need a single codec to accomplish both stereo and 5.1 channel broadcasts over HD Radio.
Existing receivers will receive the broadcast as stereo and HDC Surround enabled receivers will receive the same broadcast as true 5.1 channel surround.
"Matrix and watermark systems only provide a pseudo-surround experience which is not true to the original 5.1 channel mix", said David Frerichs, VP and US General Manager at Coding Technologies.
"HDC Surround is a true 5.1 channel encoding system that preserves the mix and provides the maximum consumer experience for surround sound over HD Radio".
"HDC Surround is designed to transmit 5.1 channel surround sound and still be compatible with today's stereo receivers", said Greg Ogonowski, VP of Product Development at Orban.
"We are working with Coding Technologies to also ensure that HDC Surround can be deployed within a modern digital radio station without a complete overhaul of the existing stereo infrastructure".

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Radio and surround Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:

radio.. in surround??

in Siena they have some wonderful wine. after a few drinks you can hear anything you want Shocked

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The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus: Let no such man be trusted. - W. Shakespeare
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would like to see this. We electro musicans should take the lead and create music with surround spaciality.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi,

there are a few 'ambient' artists using 5.1:
Myself http://www.diatonis.com/
Pete Kelley http://www.chillfactor10.com/

and others

as far as surround sound for radio - it's marketing people || need to sell some new stuff and keep people employed?

If they can do it and people will buy it ... at least it's not as bad as text messaging :^)

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Stuart... Great to have you here.

Super on you music. I listened to many of the sample files. Very nice. Beautiful web site too.

Thanks for the link to Pete Kelly's site. Excellent stuff there too.

How do you spacialize for 5 channel sound. Do you use any special tools? Auto panners? Spacializers?

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I would like to see this. We electro musicans should take the lead and create music with surround spaciality.


Should we? I think there are problems; mixing for stereo is already quite hard and 5.1 is harder. Another problem is that 5.1 systems are rarely set up properly, making it very hard to mix for "the average". I´m also not so sure it´s a good idea that many people are currently spreading their budget over 6 speakers and as many amps instead of 2; the quality per channel will inevitably suffer.

I´m very interested in multi-speaker systems for -for example- instalations but I´m not so sure 5.1 is a suitable system for audio artists or home setups at this moment.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quite, true, there are a lot of problems. I'm thinking that electronic musicians have the skills and tools to sculpt the sounds and spacialize them. It's an aspect of our music that is fertile for development and experimentation. There are many people with home theaters and they may be a great potential audience for us as artists.

Electro-musicans can work with VJ software or collaborate with VJs to create DVDs with visuals and surround sound.

Sure most peoples' home 5.1 systems will be poorly set up and not according to the standards. Most stereo systems are the same way too. It's not a show stopper for stereo CDs is it? Unless one are trying to duplicate some acoustical sound field, non-standard 5.1 setups shouldn't be a show stopper.

I would very much like to hear Diatonis' DVD on a good surround system.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
:Super on you music. I listened to many of the sample files.
How do you spacialize for 5 channel sound. Do you use any special tools? Auto panners? Spacializers?

Hi mosc,
Thank you for the complement as it's always nice to hear Smile

I use a variety of things for spacialization one is actually to abuse an Ambisonics panner and let it playback in non-ambisonic systems (normal 5.1).
http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/bproc_help.html
http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/bzoom_help.html

The above plug-ins are meant to modify B-Format soundfield signals. For more info on Ambisonics go here: http://www.ambisonic.net/

I currently use Nuendo (PC) which has standard and a couple of non-standard surround panners in it and there are some other free spatialzation tools here: http://acousmodules.free.fr/index_en.htm There are others as well.

One thing to do is to actually record using 5 microphones. For instance I've placed my guitar amp on a "lazy susan" and positioned 5 microphones around the amp and then slowly turn the amp while I play. A lazy susan round surface with ball bearings, so it freely rotates 360 degrees. You just have to be careful with your amp cords. It's a realworld analog spacializer Smile There are many ways to spacialize a sound but I prefer them to not to alter the sound too much ie: pitch, chorus, tremolo. But sometimes the effects work great.

Kassen wrote:
mosc wrote:
I would like to see this. We electro musicans should take the lead and create music with surround spaciality.

Should we? I think there are problems; mixing for stereo is already quite hard and 5.1 is harder...

Hi Kassen,

Yes setting up surround can and is a problem. I remember people referring to stereo causing the same types of problems when it came out.

I currently create everything in 5.1 with the idea of re-creating it again by adding more dimensions (Height) and/or more speakers. I've been switching from what is called the ITU speaker format to more of a pentagram setup. The speakers are placed a 72 degrees or so and panned and spacialized in this format. I find its better for listening and you don't have to face any particular direction.
http://www.audaud.com/audaud/NOV03/EQUIP/equip3OCT03.html

Surround a very small 'market' and most people that are interested in ambient/electronic music in 5.1 are interested in surround sound. There's also High-Resolution audio 96kHz upto 192kHz which many stereo artists are becoming aware of. I've had a lot of fun with surround sound and find it's much more open than stereo. I also create a stereo mixed based upon the 5.1 version.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Quite, true, there are a lot of problems. I'm thinking that electronic musicians have the skills and tools to sculpt the sounds and spacialize them. It's an aspect of our music that is fertile for development and experimentation. There are many people with home theaters and they may be a great potential audience for us as artists.


Well, yes, in general I think spatialisation, including such things as reverb and some delay use, movement and panning are very important and underapreceated. Often those things can establish how sound sources relate to eachother, to the composer and especiall to the listener. It´s just that I´m not so sure dolby 5.1 is realy the best standard to focus on.

For one thing we need to wonder first wether we are realy dealing adequatly with these subjects in our stereo recordings; we wouldn´t want to get cought up in mere gimmics.

I´m quite interested in what can for example be done with 3d imaging for headphones. When propperly used that technique can give you up, down and true 360 directions. To do real 360 instead of panning between speakers you realy need to know what the setup is or phase issues will muddy the image, etc, and so forth. One alternative might be to use each speaker as a seperate instrument but I don´t think all consumer strategies for surround like that additude (which might yield interesting artifacts in itself, of cource....).

So; I´m completely in favour of any and all strategies to place the listener inside of our piece instead of opposed to it, I just think we need to pick our battles carefully there and for me I don´t think 5.1. is it. On the other hand; I´m planned to compose a piece for a wavefield synthesis setup some time in the future and I´m realy looking forward to that, to traveling to the site and working closely with the technicians and scientists involved as well as the actuall on site system.

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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diatonis,

Thanks for your in-depth comment, that pentagram idea sounds realy intereting, I´ll read up on that soon.

I myself am often working with sounds related to the dance field and other bass-heavy material and one thing that has me woried especially is the setup of the sub-woofer. I believe it was found that many people put their sub-woofer up too loud by some 10db or something equally disturbing with a cutoff a octave above what it´s supposed to be. Now, I´m all for people deciding how they want to experience the music they paid for but sometimes that conflicts with my own desire to tell a story as I intend it. Could you tell a little about how you deal with this, please?

Also with 5.1 (but not with your pentagram, I suppose), there is a link between place and function in the speakers; voices go in the front centre and the front speakers tend to be more powerfull then the rear ones, etc. Does this affect how you compose for it? If so can it be made into a benefit instead of a constraint?

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I believe it was found that many people put their sub-woofer up too loud by some 10db or something equally disturbing with a cutoff a octave above what it´s supposed to be.


Proper 5.1 will have the lfe channel direct connected to the sub so the crossover should not influence the end result. The level is more of a problem as even sub placement can significantly influence the actual volume. Listeners having bass set too high would seem to be a problem that predates 5.1 though.

My gripe with Dolby and DTS is the cost of the encoding tools. Sure they should take a well earned cut of every hardware/software decoder. However, providing the encoding tools free to content creators would seem to make good sense.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Diatonis, thanks for the response. I'm very familiar with ambisonics. A very good friend of mine, Robin Miller, is very big on surround sound. He's developed several systems including a complet 3D system which is a hybrid between ambisonics and ambiophonics. You may find it interesting to check out his website http://filmaker.com.

Robin is coming to electro-music 2005 to talk about several areas of his work. You might want to come and meet him. Laughing

I've got the newest version of Sonar with the surround panning facility, but I haven't used it yet. It looks promissing. Also, Kyma systems are very useful for creating surround playback.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi kassen,

Kassen wrote:
... I´m not so sure dolby 5.1 is realy the best standard to focus on.

That's ok Smile

g2ian wrote:
My gripe with Dolby and DTS is the cost of the encoding tools. Sure they should take a well earned cut of every hardware/software decoder. However, providing the encoding tools free to content creators would seem to make good sense.

You can encode your 5.1 mix in DTS and burn it to a CDR using something like Minnetonka's Surcode CD DTS encoder or you can burn a DVD-Audio disk using their discWelder Bronze each costs $99 US. Both are fairly inexpensive and easy to use. You don't have to pay a liscence fee for these encoders.

Kassen wrote:
I´m quite interested in what can for example be done with 3d imaging for headphones. When propperly used that technique can give you up, down and true 360 directions.

Headphones are great and there are a number of 3d pinna HRTF type of programs out there. The thing I like about headphones is it blocks out most of the other noise (sounds) that interfere. The problem is it's tiresome to my ears, ear fatigue, and I can only listen to about 20 minutes before I need to stop. It doesn't bother everyone though.

Kassen wrote:
I´m planned to compose a piece for a wavefield synthesis setup some time in the future and I´m realy looking forward to that, to traveling to the site and working closely with the technicians and scientists involved as well as the actuall on site system.

Wavefield synthesis sounds like it'd be interesting - It's similar to ambsonics. I haven't actually heard it Sad I'd be interested in hearing what comes of it.


Kassen wrote:
...the setup of the sub-woofer. I believe it was found that many people put their sub-woofer up too loud by some 10db or something equally disturbing with a cutoff a octave above what it´s supposed to be. Now, I´m all for people deciding how they want to experience the music they paid for but sometimes that conflicts with my own desire to tell a story as I intend it. Could you tell a little about how you deal with this, please?

I think you are talking about the "end user" who is playing 5.1 audio?


Yes it can be a problem with end users not correctly setting up their systems. There's not a whole lot I can do about it Sad I know some people who have great 5.1 systems but never really listen to it. They put on the music and clean the house or sit reading the paper. I think this problem could also apply to stereo as well. There are standards to follow some set by Dolby and others.

For information on Bass Management: http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/38_LFE.pdf
For information on 5.1 Mixing: http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/4_Multichannel_Music_Mixing.pdf
For information on Dolby Digital Encoding: http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/46_DDEncodingGuidelines.pdf

Kassen wrote:
Also with 5.1; voices go in the front centre and the front speakers tend to be more powerfull then the rear ones, etc. Does this affect how you compose for it? If so can it be made into a benefit instead of a constraint?

In 5.1 there really isn't any limitation. I think you are referring to Dolby Pro Logic which has a number of limitations. In 5.1 all five main speakers (L,C,R,Ls,Rs) are discrete and output the full range of frequencies (20hz to 20kHz). Dolby Pro Logic had the surrounds limited to 100hz - 7kHz and was "Matrixed" together etc...


mosc wrote:
Robin Miller, is very big on surround sound. He's developed several systems including a complet 3D system which is a hybrid between ambisonics and ambiophonics. You may find it interesting to check out his website http://filmaker.com.

I've never seen the site but wow a lot of stuff there. I think it would be an excellent show and who knows I might just show up Smile

mosc wrote:
I've got the newest version of Sonar with the surround panning facility, but I haven't used it yet. It looks promissing. Also, Kyma systems are very useful for creating surround playback.

Yes Sonar looks promising too. I've only tried the demo and really like the panner. Using 5.1 live is an experiment in itself Smile

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diatonis wrote:
I think it would be an excellent show and who knows I might just show up Smile


Well, that would make Robin AND me happy. Please come!!!

He'd love to show you his 3D system - it's just a short drive from Philly to Bethlehem. He has put together and exceptional recording system. He's interested in acoustical recording and I'm interested in creating electronic sounds for the surround systems. We make a good team that way.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think surround sound for Emusic would be a good thing to happen. Not just for the other listeners - but for the performers as well. I have been toying with the idea of doing a 4.1 type system for live use for a number of years. Don't really need a center channel in the same sense as you see with Theatre systems. You could go to 8 surrounds and a sub but you might be getting into a a logistical nightmare. 4 good speakers and a decent sub could really do well, I think, in a live performance scenario.

The latest Vegas - ver 6 and DVD Architect 3 package has the Dolby encoding software...I don't think it can decode though - I have to check into that. So you take your completed disk and play it on your home theatre 5.1 system....

I believe Tomita did a 5-channel "pyramid" recording on his Bermuda Triangle album...never did get to hear it that way though. Has anyone had a chance to hear that? Might be a way to do the 5.1 thing - just hang the center speaker on the ceiling..... Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

DES wrote:
I think surround sound for Emusic would be a good thing to happen.

I do to Cool

DES wrote:
Not just for the other listeners - but for the performers as well. I have been toying with the idea of doing a 4.1 type system for live use for a number of years.

Pink Floyd and the Grateful Dead toured in Quad. For electronic music live I think its a great way to go.

DES wrote:
The latest Vegas - ver 6 and DVD Architect 3 package has the Dolby encoding software...

You can also use DTS for 5.1 encoding etc... but Vegas is a great program.

DES wrote:
I believe Tomita did a 5-channel "pyramid" recording on his Bermuda Triangle album...never did get to hear it that way though. Has anyone had a chance to hear that? Might be a way to do the 5.1 thing - just hang the center speaker on the ceiling.

I didn't know he did that. That would be interesting to hear. I wonder how many of those he sold. Some have also tried sending a full range signal out the sub.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have been considering this surround business. Personally, the way I currently use the stereo soundstage and how I take that into consideration when I actually write the damned stuff, I would rather write for the surround soundstage rather than make a surround mix of existing material. I do however have some pieces that could easily be mixed for a surround format with success, but I don´t not see the point.. not right now that is. Chris Orczy has been telling me about this composer he knows, John Cousins, who has actually written and recorded music for surround. In his case I reckon a stereo soundstage won´t cut it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Milton Babbit wrote music in the 50s for surround.
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