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 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » MIDI Controllers and Interfaces
I need some help with my setup - badly...
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Hyde



Joined: Jul 15, 2004
Posts: 118

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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: I need some help with my setup - badly... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am at wits end with my setup. I have a rather complex MIDI setup that involves several hardware effects processors and samplers. When I started this endeavor - I was told that (prior to purchasing) the MOTU MTP A/V was capable of storing and recalling 'scenes' in this fashion:

All of my gear works together in a chain to create 1 sound (i.e. the sampler is on fx patch 2, the Nord G2X is on patch 12, the Nord Micro is on patch 99, the Boss VF-1 is on patch 38, etc...). I was told that after I determine and set which machine needs to be on which patch/preset in order to achieve a particular effect/sound - that I could then save a 'snapshot' or program the changes (via MOTU's Clockworks app) of where they all are as a 'scene' which could be called up via my MIDI foot controller as a Program Change message (0-127) which would then switch all my gear at once. Therefore - in a live setting I could basically punch up any one of my effects chain 'scenes' via the foot controller and ALL my gear would switch itself accordingly. Now, due to the fact that a number of pieces have 'user-presets' that can only be tweaked to my liking (not stored as whatever patch number I choose) - I cannot just put everything on MIDI channel 1 and send an OMNI Patch Change message because I would be stuck with the sequential order of things. I need to have this one on 1, another on 59, another on 6, and so on.

So - after several months of going back and forth with Emagic, Apple, MOTU, and 2 studio engineers that I paid $50/hr to help me figure it out - I come to find out that it's not possible with anything I have. We thought that running Logic live (because of it's insane MIDI capabilities) would do the trick but we have hit a brick wall with that. The closest we have been able to come is setting up all my gear on MIDI channel 1 and setting up 127 'sequences' in the Arrange window for each piece of gear. Each individual 'sequence' was made to do nothing more than a patch change for that particular piece of gear. i can cycle through them SEQUENTIALLY ONLY via the '+' key that I set to 'GoTo Next Marker'. Unfortuately I can't trigger this 'GoTo Next Marker' command remotely via the foot controller. There is no CC# or PC# or anything I can do to make Logic trigger any necessary command that we have found.

***Interjection*** I never wanted to have to run ANYTHING off my laptop live. I was told that the MOTU MTP/AV would be able to do this very thing and be an autonomous (of the computer) rackmount hardware unit. Well - it relies on MIDI 'cannons' and 'modifiers' that can ONLY be programmed via OS9 (wtf kind of shit is that?). Fine - we did that. Only to find out that the 'scene' commands can't be REMOTELY TRIGGERED via a foot controller. ARGH!!! So I freakin' had to concede and accept the fact that I am only going to be able to do this via my laptop. However - I have no room in my setup nor any inclination to have that thing up front with me to get trashed or beer thrown on it etc. It will have to run on the side/back stage so that I can call up whatever patch change info I need via my foot controller or the numeric keypad on my Evolution MK-425 keyboard.

So - recalling that a guy I used to know (Vincent DeFranco) used to use Max/MSP to create 'programs' for the IR Dimension Beams he invented - I decided to call Pluggo and ask them if their app could do this since nothing else freakin' can. They told me yes. I asked them several times several different ways and they said yes. They said that it would be a rediculously simple thing to ask Max/MSP to do - I would just have to find a guy who knew how to create this relatively 'simple' program. They said that this kind of stuff is what Max/MSP was made to do. I was told that I could download a 30 day fully-functional trial and - if I were able to make this 'program' with all the patch change info during that 30 day period - I would be able to just run Max/MSP Runtime and I would never have to pay a dime. I am NOT adverse to paying $500 for the app if it can do it and not be some cobbled-together situation that ends up being an unreliable headache.

I guess I would like to know if it's possible... and if it's possible could someone help me out because the GUI isn't exactly user-friendly or intuitive. In theory - Logic should've been able to handle it but it can't. In theory the MOTU MTP A/V should've been able to handle it but it was a bust too.

I would appreciate any insight, help, or ideas with regards to how I can make this 'seemingly simple' thing happen. Lastly - here is a link to a picture and audio/MIDI routing information on my live gear setup. The speakers would actually be flipped around in a live setting and I am in the process of designing and building the box it all goes in. TIA:

http://www.unique-perspectives.biz/gear/

- Hyde
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ian-s



Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why don’t you drag some midi PCSend modules into each of your G2 patches and have them select the other patch numbers on load? Then you just need 1 pc to the G2 for each chain.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you posted the same post twice so when I discovered it (after posting a reply on the other thread) I locked it.
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Hyde



Joined: Jul 15, 2004
Posts: 118

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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I posted in multiple forums because some people (like myself) only ever read one forum. Myself - I have only ever come here for the Nord G2 forum.
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egw
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Joined: Feb 01, 2003
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The G2 could do it.
Also, the peavey pc1600x can be set up to send a different a different program change on each midi channel (up to 16 channels) with one button press.
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, this is a mess. I´ll just reply to Hyde´s responce to my own atempt at answering elsewhere. Hyde, please don´t do this again because it looks ugly and worse; it´s confusing to all of us.

Quote:
hank you for your reply. Even though I will be playing songs that have specific effects - they are not static. what fun would that be to sequence it all and push play? i am a musician. imho - your credibility and artistic integrity go right out the window if you aren't 'playing' your instrument.

in a live setting - i will need to jump all over the place effects-wise. were i to sequence the data - i wouldn't be able to deviate/improv anything because i would need to stay within the confines of the predetermined patch sequence. this is not an option. that is why i need to have the effects-chains figured out (the 'scenes or snapshots) and have them assigned to a MIDI Patch Change number that i can recall numerically from either the numeric pad on my keyboard or the foot controller number and bank buttons.

As for MIDI Ox - I am a Mac user


I should have been more clear. I wasn´t proposing you pre-program all of your midi; just the patch change stuff. I fully agree with all of your points on being a musician, I´ve actually been encouraging my friends to use more live controlers and the sets I´m involved in myself are enormeous beasts with three or four controlers set up to controll various boxes and cause heart attacks in some engineers. I aplaud you additude. I´m on your side here.

Now that we have that out of the way; changing the settings is quite boring, certainly not on the level of trigering drums or playing basslines. I´m proposing you take the automation data that needs to be firered off in between songs and automate *that* not the notes. What I´m trying to say is that this data is known in advance. The song "dancing in the sunset" will use patch 53 on the G2, effect number 12 on your multi fx and the "funky drums" setting on your sampler. Presumably you won´t suddenly need the "hardcore bashing" setting on the sampler and so I thought you could make files out of all the data each song needs, then switch to feeding the same boxes live midi.

MAX is a large program; you need to make patches in it that can be quite complex and so can be prone to errors, firering off some file called "dancing int he sunset settings" from some box or laptop would be much more dependable, I´d think. Surely the Mac has something comparable to MIDI ox? This is just a paragraph of data that needs to be send to a extremely simple port, it´s not rocket sience and as far as I can tell it only needs to be *played back* at the right moment, not *generated* at that moment whcih is a large difference in how complex the thing will be.

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deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the behringer foot pedal (fcb1010) can send (i believe) 5 program changes on separate channels for each fcb"patch". i also have an oberheim device (i can't recall the name off the top of my head) who's function is just this....of course it's useless without the manual, and i don't have the manual. the fcb might be the best way to go (if you don't do it all in the g2).

deknow
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cappy2112



Joined: Dec 24, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
the behringer foot pedal (fcb1010) can send (i believe) 5 program changes on separate channels for each fcb"patch". i also have an oberheim device (i can't recall the name off the top of my head) who's function is just this....of course it's useless without the manual, and i don't have the manual. the fcb might be the best way to go (if you don't do it all in the g2).

deknow


I have some Oberheim gear & manuals.Which device are you referring to ?
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Hyde



Joined: Jul 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey guys - sorry if what I was saying came off as confusing. I didn't think I could make it any more clear. I apologize about the multiple-forum posts. I posted the same query in the Max/MSP mailing list and had several people write back and tell me that it could be done quite easily with Max and a number of them offered to write the patch for me (some for money which I have no problem paying). Then - someone sent me a link to this:

http://www.miditemp.com/english/pmm88.html

And they said it would work very nicely for what I want. I HATE my MOTU MTP A/V. It is unreliable and half of its features can't be programmed in the OSX enviroment. I looked everywhere for a suitable replacement and now it looks as though I may have found one. I wanted to keep this as a hardware-only setup. Thanks for your patience everyone.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can´t a MMT8 send such data? you could midi-merge it with the rest, pretend all the sets of settings are "songs" and fire them off with the buttons. I´d realy look in the direction of things like that and drop the MAX idea.

Is there anything wrong at all with the idea of having the G2 send the data? you could build some structure that would fire the data that belongs with a pach as soon as that pach is loaded and so you´d only have to controll the G2 and the rest would follow. I see many solutions without involving a laptop.

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DES



Joined: Feb 28, 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do the synths/processors you are using have "program mapping"? A lot of them do. If I understand your need - you want the complete "system" to work as one "program" Basically what program mapping does is take a recieved program change and convert it INSIDE the receiving device to the program it needs. So for example, if your master controller/keypad sends a prog. change 1, the first device could call up program 23, the next device might be program 700, the next might actually be program 1. Another way to look at this - inside your synth module your program map might look like this.

ext. Prog. Change Int. Prog Selected
1---------------------------4
2---------------------------27
3---------------------------15
4--------------------------120
5 27 <<< note it is same as # 2 was but on another synth it might be different...

I would think that if your gear has this capability that it would be far simpler to do it this way - and potentially more stable. Now if you have some pieces that don't have the program map I "think" the MTP-AV can do that for you. I have an older parallel port one...and if I remember correctly you can setup a map on each channel. The the thing here is you would have to have your master controller/keypad routed to each device... I am running PC but I think that the internal operation of the MTP AV is similar...

Did I explain this well enough? Confused

I just finished running 24 midi cables at my home studio...and I still have a few more to go......sheeshh....

Dave


Later in the evening......After looking into this....it seems that the MTP AV cannot do the program mapping. I thought it could back in it's early form when it had the horrible PC driver problems... The new software doesn't seem to allow it at all. I probably was confusing it with the JL COOPER MSB+ REV 2 I had. Still - check your synths to see if they support program mapping - that might be the solution.

Dave again.
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riscky



Joined: Sep 07, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyde, I use a Miditemp PMM88 to acheive your 'Patches Scene' aim, and it works very well indeed. Get one with the mp3 board fitted, and you can also sync/trigger audio to midi or just play mp3s during your break. It can sync Wav to midi without the mp3 card, but you'll need to fit a larger Hard Drive. The Remote is far smaller than a laptop (fit it to a mic stand, or on top of a G2X).
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Hyde



Joined: Jul 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for all your responses. An EXTREMELY helpful individual from Switzerland who found me via the Max/MSP mailing list made me a standalone application that solves every one of my problems concerning this matter. He made it in Max in Mac OS9 and recompiled it as a standalone for use in OSX. It's quite brilliant and I couldn't be happier. Consider this problem resolved. (Mods can delete/lock this topic). Attatched is a screenshot:


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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1) you should tell the "EXTREMELY helpful individual from Switzerland" to stop by at electro-music.com
2) do you mean you need a Mac to run this standalone application?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey! That is one cool looking app! Very Happy
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