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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 33
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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:00 am Post subject:
Seamless oscillator sweep |
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Hi everybody,
I guess this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer: is there a way to overcome the halftone steps in the oscillator coarse knobs? I can make nice sweeps using the glide function but oscillators and filters will always arrive at discrete semitone steps. I know I can get everywhere I want using the fine control but I'm looking for the kind of experience you get when you can sweep freehand and stop immediately where you want. Well, like on a "real" analogue synth (if it's not from DSI )
I've found that one can send 14-bit resolution out of the machine. Anyway to get it in and not settling on halftones? _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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blue hell
Site Admin
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 24081 Location: The Netherlands, Enschede
Audio files: 278
G2 patch files: 320
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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:47 am Post subject:
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I think the only way would be to use pitch bend .. for an engine that would mean an external controller over MIDI. _________________ Jan
also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:38 am Post subject:
Re: Seamless oscillator sweep |
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sebber wrote: | I've found that one can send 14-bit resolution out of the machine. Anyway to get it in and not settling on halftones? |
The G2 encoders operate by being assigned to module knobs, and those all conform to the standard 7-bit resolution. So there's no way to do it with the G2 hardware directly. You'll need an external MIDI controller that is able to send its knob settings as 14-bit NRPN messages (eg. the Behringer BCR2000).
NRPNs are simply a string of 4 consecutive MIDI CC# messages following a standard protocol. Receiving and processing them correctly should be possible on the G2 with Control Receive modules and extra circuitry. |
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Electromagnetic Wave
Joined: Apr 28, 2013 Posts: 302 Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38
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Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:21 pm Post subject:
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Hi sebber,
Can you use the FM Lin Input ? I use this parameter to get fine tuning as suggested to me in the past by varice. I use this for sweep effect too :
Quote: | But, the G2 oscillators with an FM input can produce finer pitches in between this limit if you patch a pitch control signal into the FM input. I use this trick to get a very fine pitch detune that cannot otherwise be produced by just setting the Cent knob alone. |
http://electro-music.com/forum/post-394665.html#394665
You can use the same input with some filter modules too.
Edit : Just to add :
Quote: | In practice the internal frequency resolution of the G2 is 0.0057 Hz, which is about 4000 intermediate steps between two half notes at the middle of the keyboard. Which for all practical purposes is pretty accurate and will make all pitch glides sound as smooth as they should. |
http://rhordijk.home.xs4all.nl/G2Pages/Signallevels.htm |
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 33
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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:10 am Post subject:
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Hi all,
and thanks for your input. Pitch bend goes only so far and the FM input trick is great, that's pretty much what I was looking for. The little changes in the timbre when changing the pitch just so slightly! Fascinating right away. Unfortunately it doesn't work over the whole range.
So, it seems the G2 suffers from that digital malaise, which is funny considering that it can send out 14bit. I recently didn't buy a DSI Pro 2 because there the filters behave the same way: no way to "free-wheel" everywhere you want to go.
Thanks again and until the next question
seb _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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Electromagnetic Wave
Joined: Apr 28, 2013 Posts: 302 Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 33
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:54 am Post subject:
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This is starting to be fun! I tried the same thing yesterday, but didn't get much further. I remembered there's a patch where somebody sent out NRPN and of course it was Tim Kleinert who did it Tim, question for you then: if you can send out a NRPN, why not just reroute it back and there we go? Full resolution from the front panel of the machine? I tried to understand https://web.archive.org/web/20150407060239/http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm, but frankly your patch and this are a little over my head. I'm actually stuck thinking that when a knob can only send out 127 steps than we simply have a resolution of 127 steps and that's it. Does this mean that the G2 encoders are not "really" endless encoders but just 127 step encoders who happen to by able to move their range? (I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear and I'm even less sure I would understand the answer to my question).
I found that even my mighty Behringer UMA25S can send NRPN and since it's red... How do I do it? And would I be able to send a finer resolution with one encoder? _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:05 am Post subject:
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sebber wrote: | This is starting to be fun! I tried the same thing yesterday, but didn't get much further. I remembered there's a patch where somebody sent out NRPN and of course it was Tim Kleinert who did it |
Was it? Damn, I don't even remember that.
sebber wrote: | Does this mean that the G2 encoders are not "really" endless encoders but just 127 step encoders who happen to by able to move their range? |
They are endless encoders, but their resolution is ultimately a matter of implementation by the host hardware. And as I described above, encoders "do something" by being assigned to module knobs, and all module knobs conform to the 7-bit MIDI standard, because they also can be mapped to external MIDI CCs. It's a blind spot, inherent in the overall design of the G2 system. |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:25 am Post subject:
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Addendum: The only possibility I see on the G2 hardware is to concoct a "multi-turn encoder" that wraps over when dialed to maximum or minimum (via MIDI CC control), raising or lowering a second MSB counter. One would lose a smidgen of LSB range (126 steps, since values 0 and 127 are reserved for wraparound-triggering), but still would have a total maximum resolution of 16128. Means a lot of twiddling though , if you want to use all of it.
I have an idea how to make it. But I don't own a hardware G2 anymore, so I could only sketch it out in the editor and let folks debug it. Can do that though. Just let me know.
Edit: Bollocks! The maximum resolution of such a "super-knob" (hi, Yamaha ) could be up to 24 bit. That's approx. 133152 full rotational cycles. |
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sebber
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 501 Location: Berlin
Audio files: 3
G2 patch files: 33
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:48 am Post subject:
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Yes, Sir, it was you: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-393441.html#393441
So, how many days would it take to go once up and down the whole range? That's not really the idea either. Hm. I would expect that one can diminish the resolution, but are we then back where we started from?
Thinking again maybe a better idea is to limit the amount of modulation and then automatically having a finer resolution. Oscillator FM doesn't give great results over the whole range anyway and only turns into digital noise.
However, don't stop thinking! I'm still dreaming of feeding the NRPN just back into the thing again. _________________ Fish don't swim. They dive. |
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Tim Kleinert
Joined: Mar 12, 2004 Posts: 1148 Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Audio files: 7
G2 patch files: 236
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:40 am Post subject:
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True.
Quote: | So, how many days would it take to go once up and down the whole range? That's not really the idea either. Hm. I would expect that one can diminish the resolution, but are we then back where we started from? |
As I said, it would be twiddly, even if reduced down to eg. 14 bits like NRPN. Sweeping half the range would still require approx. 64 full knob rotations.
Another idea I just had is to use a knob relatively as a self-resetting differential. Meaning if you tweak it left or right, the value to be controlled (temporarily stored in an accumulator) would rise or fall according to the speed of momentary knob movement. |
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ian-s
Joined: Apr 01, 2004 Posts: 2669 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Audio files: 42
G2 patch files: 626
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Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject:
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Tim Kleinert wrote: | Another idea I just had is to use a knob relatively as a self-resetting differential. Meaning if you tweak it left or right, the value to be controlled (temporarily stored in an accumulator) would rise or fall according to the speed of momentary knob movement. |
Interesting. My first real job was working at an electronic component wholesaler. I found it difficult to walk past the vernier dials without picking one up and turning it.
It looked just like a synthi frequency pot. Ten full slow rotations from min to max but it had some kind of clutch that, if turned fast enough, switched it to 1:1 ratio. Is that the same on the synthi?
Matching the smoothing and range scaling to rotation speed sounds like a great idea. |
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Electromagnetic Wave
Joined: Apr 28, 2013 Posts: 302 Location: Kebek
G2 patch files: 38
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Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:07 am Post subject:
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Quote: | Matching the smoothing and range scaling to rotation speed sounds like a great idea. |
I remember i was able to do that with a BCF2000 |
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