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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Seamless oscillator sweep
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sebber



Joined: Aug 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: Seamless oscillator sweep Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi everybody,

I guess this has been asked before but I couldn't find an answer: is there a way to overcome the halftone steps in the oscillator coarse knobs? I can make nice sweeps using the glide function but oscillators and filters will always arrive at discrete semitone steps. I know I can get everywhere I want using the fine control but I'm looking for the kind of experience you get when you can sweep freehand and stop immediately where you want. Well, like on a "real" analogue synth (if it's not from DSI Sad )

I've found that one can send 14-bit resolution out of the machine. Anyway to get it in and not settling on halftones?

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the only way would be to use pitch bend .. for an engine that would mean an external controller over MIDI.
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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Seamless oscillator sweep Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
I've found that one can send 14-bit resolution out of the machine. Anyway to get it in and not settling on halftones?

The G2 encoders operate by being assigned to module knobs, and those all conform to the standard 7-bit resolution. So there's no way to do it with the G2 hardware directly. You'll need an external MIDI controller that is able to send its knob settings as 14-bit NRPN messages (eg. the Behringer BCR2000).

NRPNs are simply a string of 4 consecutive MIDI CC# messages following a standard protocol. Receiving and processing them correctly should be possible on the G2 with Control Receive modules and extra circuitry.
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi sebber,

Can you use the FM Lin Input ? I use this parameter to get fine tuning as suggested to me in the past by varice. I use this for sweep effect too :

Quote:
But, the G2 oscillators with an FM input can produce finer pitches in between this limit if you patch a pitch control signal into the FM input. I use this trick to get a very fine pitch detune that cannot otherwise be produced by just setting the Cent knob alone.

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-394665.html#394665

You can use the same input with some filter modules too.


Edit : Just to add :

Quote:
In practice the internal frequency resolution of the G2 is 0.0057 Hz, which is about 4000 intermediate steps between two half notes at the middle of the keyboard. Which for all practical purposes is pretty accurate and will make all pitch glides sound as smooth as they should.

http://rhordijk.home.xs4all.nl/G2Pages/Signallevels.htm
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sebber



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,

and thanks for your input. Pitch bend goes only so far and the FM input trick is great, that's pretty much what I was looking for. The little changes in the timbre when changing the pitch just so slightly! Fascinating right away. Unfortunately it doesn't work over the whole range.
So, it seems the G2 suffers from that digital malaise, which is funny considering that it can send out 14bit. I recently didn't buy a DSI Pro 2 because there the filters behave the same way: no way to "free-wheel" everywhere you want to go.

Thanks again and until the next question Smile
seb

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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

By using many variations (modulated by the same knob used to control the FM Lin input level) to pass from a specific Hz to another (ie : variation A is set to x Hz, variation B to y Hz, etc...) I think we can build something with good range/resolution.

I know my english is not very good ... here is a small patch to showing what I say. That's working but at the moment I can pass from variation 1 to 2 and so on but I cannot go back (pass from variation 2 to 1). We can probably fix this but I just patch it quickly to got the main idea.

The big challange is probably with the calculation with the FM Lin input value if we use different value with the oscilator frequency on each variation.

Just to add : We can link 4 LevelAdd modules in the FM Lin input to go to the full range.


Edit : Load the patch in slot A and move the knob assigned to the parameter page A1.


finetuningv11.pch2
 Description:
Exemple (not complete) using variations to get a biggest range/resolution. Load the patch in slot A

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 Filename:  finetuningv11.pch2
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sebber



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is starting to be fun! I tried the same thing yesterday, but didn't get much further. I remembered there's a patch where somebody sent out NRPN and of course it was Tim Kleinert who did it Smile Tim, question for you then: if you can send out a NRPN, why not just reroute it back and there we go? Full resolution from the front panel of the machine? I tried to understand https://web.archive.org/web/20150407060239/http://www.philrees.co.uk/nrpnq.htm, but frankly your patch and this are a little over my head. I'm actually stuck thinking that when a knob can only send out 127 steps than we simply have a resolution of 127 steps and that's it. Does this mean that the G2 encoders are not "really" endless encoders but just 127 step encoders who happen to by able to move their range? (I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear and I'm even less sure I would understand the answer to my question).

I found that even my mighty Behringer UMA25S can send NRPN and since it's red... How do I do it? And would I be able to send a finer resolution with one encoder?

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
This is starting to be fun! I tried the same thing yesterday, but didn't get much further. I remembered there's a patch where somebody sent out NRPN and of course it was Tim Kleinert who did it Smile

Was it? Damn, I don't even remember that. Laughing

sebber wrote:
Does this mean that the G2 encoders are not "really" endless encoders but just 127 step encoders who happen to by able to move their range?

They are endless encoders, but their resolution is ultimately a matter of implementation by the host hardware. And as I described above, encoders "do something" Laughing by being assigned to module knobs, and all module knobs conform to the 7-bit MIDI standard, because they also can be mapped to external MIDI CCs. It's a blind spot, inherent in the overall design of the G2 system.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Addendum: The only possibility I see on the G2 hardware is to concoct a "multi-turn encoder" that wraps over when dialed to maximum or minimum (via MIDI CC control), raising or lowering a second MSB counter. One would lose a smidgen of LSB range (126 steps, since values 0 and 127 are reserved for wraparound-triggering), but still would have a total maximum resolution of 16128. Means a lot of twiddling though Laughing, if you want to use all of it.

I have an idea how to make it. But I don't own a hardware G2 anymore, so I could only sketch it out in the editor and let folks debug it. Can do that though. Just let me know.

Edit: Bollocks! Laughing The maximum resolution of such a "super-knob" (hi, Yamaha Laughing) could be up to 24 bit. That's approx. 133152 full rotational cycles. Shocked
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sebber



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, Sir, it was you: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-393441.html#393441 Smile

So, how many days would it take to go once up and down the whole range? That's not really the idea either. Hm. I would expect that one can diminish the resolution, but are we then back where we started from?

Thinking again maybe a better idea is to limit the amount of modulation and then automatically having a finer resolution. Oscillator FM doesn't give great results over the whole range anyway and only turns into digital noise.

However, don't stop thinking! I'm still dreaming of feeding the NRPN just back into the thing again.

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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
Yes, Sir, it was you: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-393441.html#393441 Smile

Laughing True.

Quote:
So, how many days would it take to go once up and down the whole range? That's not really the idea either. Hm. I would expect that one can diminish the resolution, but are we then back where we started from?

As I said, it would be twiddly, even if reduced down to eg. 14 bits like NRPN. Sweeping half the range would still require approx. 64 full knob rotations.

Another idea I just had is to use a knob relatively as a self-resetting differential. Meaning if you tweak it left or right, the value to be controlled (temporarily stored in an accumulator) would rise or fall according to the speed of momentary knob movement.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim Kleinert wrote:
Another idea I just had is to use a knob relatively as a self-resetting differential. Meaning if you tweak it left or right, the value to be controlled (temporarily stored in an accumulator) would rise or fall according to the speed of momentary knob movement.


Interesting. My first real job was working at an electronic component wholesaler. I found it difficult to walk past the vernier dials without picking one up and turning it.
It looked just like a synthi frequency pot. Ten full slow rotations from min to max but it had some kind of clutch that, if turned fast enough, switched it to 1:1 ratio. Is that the same on the synthi?
Matching the smoothing and range scaling to rotation speed sounds like a great idea.
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Electromagnetic Wave



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Matching the smoothing and range scaling to rotation speed sounds like a great idea.

I remember i was able to do that with a BCF2000
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