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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
1.4 update
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aMUSEd



Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It must be out soon. This months SOS has a full page add featuring the new "Stage" which also has a paragraph on the G2 and the updated 1.4 editor with it's new randomisation features. In fact it says it's out already in that but obviously it's a bit ahead of reality but hopefully not too much
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The advert with the reference to 1.4 was in the previous months issue as well.



Cheers


Andy
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a notice at clavia.com about an OS upgrade for Nord Stage (1.12). My guess is that Clavia have been swamped with bug reports on the Nord Stage and this has kept them from finishing the OS upgrade for the G2... Question
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and70it



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: 1.4 editor for christmas
Subject description: feed the nord modular... not only the f******g piano
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the new editor for christmas 05... this is a good clavia present
for all the g2 owners... or it is only dream?
Twisted Evil






"feed the nord modular... and not only the f******g piano"
(from the G2 live aid) Twisted Evil
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Hyde



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i quit holding my breath months ago. imho it was incredibly foolish to demo it and give people a taste and then make people wait a almost a year (and counting). i don't think Clavia cares much about the users of their products for several reasons but mostly because:

• built-in obsolescence of the G1 hardware and software
• lack of significant software/firmware updates in a timely manner
• rarely if ever implement features begged for in user forums and emails sent to the developers
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monobass



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyde wrote:
• built-in obsolescence of the G1 hardware and software
• lack of significant software/firmware updates in a timely manner
• rarely if ever implement features begged for in user forums and emails sent to the developers


I agree with the first two.. but is the last one true? There are probably some people on the forum who could answer that.

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dasz



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know Clavia monitors this forum, and some feature DO make it in. But ya gotta remember Clavia is a small shop (they are NOT Roland or Yamaha with 100's of developers), it's really a small dedicated shop.

The problem lies in the stacks of features we all request (and there is a HUGE number of these), features which come out of Clavia.

Howard once put it, every G2/NM user is different and we all have our own use cases to present, so the list of feature requests is HUGE.

Clavia does try to make everyone happy (the G2 added MIDI out, variations, and performances, just to name a few top NM1 feature requests). But Clavia needs to make money so people keep their jobs.

This is where other products come in. Our beloved G2 is a masterpiece, and the Clavia developers know this, but things like the Electro, or Stage also pay the bills (probably more than our beloved yet super-niche-G2 does). I would hate to be a Clavia developer who has to work on something less COOL than the G2 Smile

/Dasz

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hyde wrote:
i quit holding my breath months ago. imho it was incredibly foolish to demo it and give people a taste and then make people wait a almost a year (and counting). i don't think Clavia cares much about the users of their products for several reasons but mostly because:

• built-in obsolescence of the G1 hardware and software
• lack of significant software/firmware updates in a timely manner
• rarely if ever implement features begged for in user forums and emails sent to the developers


I disagree with the first point. I don't see the NM as having "build in obsolescence". If it becomes obsolete it will be because of Windows/ Mac OS changing. If at the time that it realy does become incompatible Clavia still hasn't opened the source I will be very disapointed indeed (since that doesn't actually cost any trouble beyond uploading a compressed dir of sourcecode for the editor) but that hasn't hapened yet.

They aparently stoped developing which seems contrary to the implied promise of "instruments that last a life time" but that's a step away from "built-in obsolescence". The NM isn't obsolete compared to the G2 by a long strech,

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Hyde



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good point, kassen and dasz. to clarify: i had my micro for a year before OSX came out. i had a thousands of patches and no OSX support. admittedly, we did finally get a craptacular OSX beta Editor which is better than nothing. but Clavia staunchly said - we aren't going to update our stuff and even if you bought it 1 month ago too bad. you're only option is to keep a copy of an old OS lying around if you want to use your (potentially new) machine. that to me (and alot of other people) sucked and sucked BAD. if you know that you aren't going to update your app to run under current operating systems then that is planned obsolescence (to me). did your printer or cd burner or other hardware manufacturer tell you 'sorry to hear that you just spent a bunch of money on something we aren't going to support any longer - but hey, if you want to burn a CD, just boot into your old OS and it will still work fine."? as a matter of fact - they were still selling G1 units when OSX was out for over a year! i dunno. back on point though - we've been waiting an awfully long time for an update.
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JLS



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all

sorry my bad english Smile

why not Clavia release free SDK kit for G2 ?

with SDK :

- no waiting for new update
- more new modules and function from free user developers

Tip for Clavia developer :

- please update G2 usb driver to midi in/out and audio in/out over usb cable ( new windows in/out device - like sound card ) this is very useful for engine 2

Howk Smile

Kamil
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Acidfever



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I will tell you why.....this would give competing companies a open view of Clavia's Algoritms and solution.

It would basicly mean revealing all of their secrets. Not going to happen......what they could do is release a set of building blocks so you can create your own modules.....but i don't see anything like that happening either.........


megerov wrote:
Hi all

sorry my bad english Smile

why not Clavia release free SDK kit for G2 ?

with SDK :

- no waiting for new update
- more new modules and function from free user developers

Tip for Clavia developer :

- please update G2 usb driver to midi in/out and audio in/out over usb cable ( new windows in/out device - like sound card ) this is very useful for engine 2

Howk Smile

Kamil
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

megerov wrote:

- no waiting for new update
- more new modules and function from free user developers




And no stable G2 and lots of support calls.

Cheers

Andy
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seraph
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BobTheDog wrote:

And no stable G2 and lots of support calls.

I wonder if they support calls in Czech language Cool

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jeremydb



Joined: Oct 13, 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:43 am    Post subject: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry, but that's not true. An SDK simply provides an interface for developers to talk to a (potentially closed) system. Clavia could easily create an SDK (and really should), without compromising any of their trade secrets, just permitting users to construct their own modules which plug-in to the existing architecture.

I don't expect Clavia to open-source the G2 OS anytime soon, but an SDK would not only make users happy, it would provide a means for 3rd parties to extend the system in ways Clavia wouldn't expect, making the instrument even more valuable, marketable and providing it with a much longer life-span.

Wishful thinking, but it's that time of year...

Best
jb

Acidfever wrote:
I will tell you why.....this would give competing companies a open view of Clavia's Algoritms and solution.

It would basicly mean revealing all of their secrets. Not going to happen......what they could do is release a set of building blocks so you can create your own modules.....but i don't see anything like that happening either.........


megerov wrote:
Hi all

sorry my bad english Smile

why not Clavia release free SDK kit for G2 ?

with SDK :

- no waiting for new update
- more new modules and function from free user developers

Tip for Clavia developer :

- please update G2 usb driver to midi in/out and audio in/out over usb cable ( new windows in/out device - like sound card ) this is very useful for engine 2

Howk Smile

Kamil
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeremydb wrote:
Sorry, but that's not true. An SDK simply provides an interface for developers to talk to a (potentially closed) system. Clavia could easily create an SDK (and really should), without compromising any of their trade secrets, just permitting users to construct their own modules which plug-in to the existing architecture.


Hi There,

I dont quite understand what you are saying here. At what level would your sdk be aimed without compromising any of clavias trade secrets?

Cheers

Andy
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monobass



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Surely Clavia could release the code for the NM editor without releasing any trade secrets... other than maybe the code that makes the nice curvy wires Wink
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There a lots of features I'd like to see in the G2. Still, it's the best thing out there now and it's become virtually the only synth I use. I think the quality is generally excellent.

I too have asked for them to open up there system so open source type development could proceed. But in thinking about it, I remember that I have developed a lot of software. To write it for your own use takes X (time, money, etc). To make software you release takes 10 or 20 X. An SDK would be very difficult to support.

We all have our individual visions of what future the G2 should take, but the most important thing is that it stays true to the vision of Hans. He thought of it in the first place.

Peace...

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jeremydb



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, let's take it on the simplest level: Clavia permits plug-ins to the desktop app, which can be uploaded to the machine. To build a plug-in, a developer (using C or similar) would be provided with an interface: a means to initialize and dispose of an object, to define a UI layout, and to respond to callbacks -- for user interaction with the UI, for incoming audio or control signals -- and so on.

To build an SDK, very little of the underlying implementation needs to be revealed. Developers only need to be given enough information to accomplish the above tasks - and the developer interface for doing this could be completely separate from the internal, Clavia-only one.

For instance, the interface could be something like:

myNewObject = claviaObject_new("downSample"); // define a new object called "downSample"
myHiResInput = claviaObject_addHiResInput(myNewObject, 1); // add one hi-res input
myLoResOutput = claviaObject_addLoResOutput(myNewObject, 1); // add one lo-res output
claviaInput_setCallback(myHiResInput, myHiResInputCallback); // thing to do when new audio data comes in - form of the callback function is documented somewhere - presumably pushes data via the output to the next object

and so on... In a simplistic scenario like this, one could create significantly complex new objects without comprimising any of the inner workings of Clavia's code. That is, we don't know what claviaObject_addHiResInput() does on the inside: it's just a means for us to accomplish the addition of a new input.

Assuming that the host app - the editor - can load and upload plugins, the "downSample" object would be usable to anyone.

Anyhow, I'm not holding my breath. I'm willing to bet that, like most companies, Clavia presumably doesn't recognize the value of extensible systems, or fears the consequences of an instrument which is not entirely under their control. I hope not, though - an extensible G2 would be absolutely amazing. Think of MaxMSP in hardware - MaxMSP has been extensible for 15 years and is still going strong, in no small part because of the creative 3rd party developer community, which has produced a wide array of new objects to accomplish all kinds of weird stuff (admittedly, I'm a little biased, since I work for C74, but I work for C74 because I'm interested in extensible modular systems...).

jb

BobTheDog wrote:
jeremydb wrote:
Sorry, but that's not true. An SDK simply provides an interface for developers to talk to a (potentially closed) system. Clavia could easily create an SDK (and really should), without compromising any of their trade secrets, just permitting users to construct their own modules which plug-in to the existing architecture.


Hi There,

I dont quite understand what you are saying here. At what level would your sdk be aimed without compromising any of clavias trade secrets?

Cheers

Andy
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jeremy,

How do you make your object to something usefull then?

Will your C compiler output code to run on the dsps in the G2?


Cheers

Andy
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jeremydb



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:15 am    Post subject: re: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's what the callbacks are for. In the callback, you define behavior - what to do when incoming data arrives. Like I said, the example of a downsampler is simplistic and there are lots of considerations which I'm not thinking of. But if you get a vector of numbers as input to the callback (representing an incoming signal), you can perform any kind of math on that list before returning from the callback/routing input to output/etc.

The DSP question is a good one. I'm assuming that Clavia doesn't write their code in chip-specific assembly language and uses some higher-level language for most of their work. Could be wrong.

BobTheDog wrote:
Hi Jeremy,

How do you make your object to something usefull then?

Will your C compiler output code to run on the dsps in the G2?


Cheers

Andy
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eposk



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

today clavia posted a 'Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!'

nothing about the G2 1.4 update, they did talk a lot about the nord stage... jeez the nord stage is like clavia's new baby.

I cant wait any longer for the 1.4 update! I need to stop checking clavia.se every morning...
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Most DSP code is generally written in C, and later converted to assembly code for efficiency & to have deterministic evaluation. There is no need to push/pop the register space (as a c ompiler will mostly do) just to use 1 or 2 registers during operation of a simple module (DSPs are RISC and have 32 or so general purpose registers, unlike an Intel which has what, 4?). Based on their use of the "zero page" ram (internal to the DSP), It seems the "OS" is just a step-thru machine that passes *pointers to each function. the function operates on the pointed to data (the equivalent of the wires in the editor), and writes it's output to the zero page ram. I think it uses the zero page ram like this to maintain performance.

Because of this use of assembly code, the entire DSP would most likely need a static code space, and so a plug-in architecture wouldn't work very well (there is no creation/destroying of an object, etc). DSPs in general don't have the same addressing options that general purpose CPUs have (no MMU, minimal offset addressing modes, so functions don't live at imaginary 0x0000 land). Reinforcing the fact that eveything gets compiled together at once. This whole shebang could be made different, but in the mean time, it would mean recompiling the entire DSP code each time a new module is added.

I agree with all of your sentiment, and personally love the extensible open-sourced model (see my avatar?). But Howard is also right...it would take a lot of effort by Clavia to open this up to the world, and still maintain their own control of their product. It makes me think of starting an open-sourced DSP project for MAX/MSP or Pd to run on!!!!
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jeremydb wrote:

For instance, the interface could be something like:

myNewObject = claviaObject_new("downSample"); // define a new object called "downSample"
myHiResInput = claviaObject_addHiResInput(myNewObject, 1); // add one hi-res input
myLoResOutput = claviaObject_addLoResOutput(myNewObject, 1); // add one lo-res output
claviaInput_setCallback(myHiResInput, myHiResInputCallback); // thing to do when new audio data comes in - form of the callback function is documented somewhere - presumably pushes data via the output to the next object

and so on...


You can get this in the Kyma system. It is very open and extensible. For this purpose, it is much better than the G2. You can get many more DSPs, up to 27. There are up to 8 channels of really superb audio. But asking the G2 to be a Kyma is pointless. You can get exactly what you want already.

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jeremydb



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: SDK Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dreaming is never pointless! Anyway, for the price of entry, the G2 is a great machine and I certainly didn't intend any of what I wrote to be a complaint. But there's nothing wrong with wishing for the great to become greater.

jb

mosc wrote:
jeremydb wrote:

For instance, the interface could be something like:

myNewObject = claviaObject_new("downSample"); // define a new object called "downSample"
myHiResInput = claviaObject_addHiResInput(myNewObject, 1); // add one hi-res input
myLoResOutput = claviaObject_addLoResOutput(myNewObject, 1); // add one lo-res output
claviaInput_setCallback(myHiResInput, myHiResInputCallback); // thing to do when new audio data comes in - form of the callback function is documented somewhere - presumably pushes data via the output to the next object

and so on...


You can get this in the Kyma system. It is very open and extensible. For this purpose, it is much better than the G2. You can get many more DSPs, up to 27. There are up to 8 channels of really superb audio. But asking the G2 to be a Kyma is pointless. You can get exactly what you want already.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nothing wrong with wishing. That's true. Very Happy
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