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Kassen
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 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:58 am Post subject:
Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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Ok, now, that´s not realy true, but I thought it was a funny title.
Actually here (large immage, watch out) is a very interesting interview with Frank Zappa on synthesisers and their players from ´79. It contains some painfully true notes on keyboardists that are quite funny. The second page is here. It´s not only the use of pitchbend that gets flamed, while he´s at it he also complains about musicians in general and movie directors. Great stuff.
It´s from Synapse magazine which is probably interesting to everybody here, at least as a hystorical artefact.
(And Wan´s band is actually quite good, realy.)
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:09 am Post subject:
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I remember that one. That stuff about the synth guy who goes "eeeeeeee"
and the .. ah right,,, I found it:
"I mean, we wouldn´t want to interfere with the synthesizer player´s little dream world"
and the "I´m diatonic. That is the most radical thing you can do, is really be just diatonic"
There are more.
"Who gives the fuck about composers? Musciian´s don´t!"
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mosc
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:18 am Post subject:
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That IS hilarious.
Thanks for posting it... 
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elektro80
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:31 am Post subject:
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The same issue had a review of the Yamaha CS 80. Right.. here it is!
The CS 80 is nice. No doubt about it. However, there is also a recent CS 80 mythology. The review is interesting as it shows how the CS 80 was understood at the time.
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Wan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:43 am Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Kassen wrote: | | Ok, now, that´s not realy true, but I thought it was a funny title.. |
Ah it has been found....
Now i've read Zappa's Universe (i think that's the title, an essay of Zappa's life) and that book is chock full of this stuff. Very funny, mostly very true and sometimes very confronting 
i am only human i guess, and i want to do wheeeee with my bender like the guitar player. At least that is how it started....
And after all Zappa did find a keyboard player that understood his emu (Tommy Mars), that was after he gave this interview. Tommy didn't do wheee on his pitchbender....he did some nice things with a ribbon though. And got damned by all kinds of brass players, but that is besides this story...
| Kassen wrote: | | It contains some painfully true notes on keyboardists that are quite funny. It´s not only the use of pitchbend that gets flamed, while he´s at it he also complains about musicians in general and movie directors. Great stuff... |
I think you should really read above book, you will like it! But not only keyboardists are being flamed....as in this article you will learn that musicians in general are evil. But that's something you've already experienced 
Now i have read in a certain post a dedication from your side to something called Live. So to you Live is God?
| Kassen wrote: | | (And Wan´s band is actually quite good, realy.) |
Hah ...... Now put THAT in the title, or "Kassen hates keyboardists"
otoh don't, it is actually true. Zappa would have hated me....
But it doesn't keep me from playing his music and having fun in doing it.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Wan wrote: |
I think you should really read above book, you will like it! But not only keyboardists are being flamed....as in this article you will learn that musicians in general are evil. But that's something you've already experienced
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Zappa is in my list of people I should get into, but he´s done sooooo much it´s hard to figure out where to start. Also; Sonic Youth is first in line at the moment.
Still, he´s funny, I remember when I was a young, small Kas I saw him being interviewed on the TV. At the end, in responce to something he said the journalist asked "o what *is* it that you do?" and Zappa only replied by slamming some key somewhere in his studio and this great big noize emerged fade to end-titles. Made a big impression on me.
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Now i have read in a certain post a dedication from your side to something called Live. So to you Live is God?
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In that we´ve all been waiting for the new comming and that I´m now amongst the chosen few?
;¬)
Live is even worse then other instruments. Not only will you *want* to play alone, it´s even viable and you get to make more noise then the average ensemble.
I have two keyboards and a theremin hooked up to it, B.T.W.
| Quote: |
Hah ...... Now put THAT in the title, or "Kassen hates keyboardists"
otoh don't, it is actually true. Zappa would have hated me....
But it doesn't keep me from playing his music and having fun in doing it. |
But I don´t hate keyboardists, the only thing I ever complained about was that all the world was asumed to be one by synth manifacturers. Keyboard manifacturers are to blame as much as the average person playing keyboard solos in Marilion (now there´s some guitar-envy!). Did you ever notice all keyboard presets are expected to come with velocity sensitivity, pitchbend and modulation? Even harpsichord presets have those. This is silly. If it were my harpsichord there would be modulation posibilities for instrument size or pick stuffness but NOOOOOOOOOO, it has to go "WHEEEE". Silly people.
Speaking of my crusade against keyboards, did you perchance see I demonstrated how to make your own arpegiator in Tassman in the user library on their site? It´s a tricky little thing, some keyboardist who wanted to go beyond the average could extend it in order to have slides as a part of the patern and so on because it´s all inside of the patch. Now THAT will teach those guitar players, use your modwheel to determine the amount of slide instead of having to go "WHEEEE" manually, you could include a little bit of programing to even have a synthtec version of "nails over strings" sounds. For only two voices it could actually be ported to the G2, given some extra thinking.
Having fun is fine, but do fill in the requirered forms when you are done.
:¬p
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Wan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:07 am Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Kassen wrote: | Zappa is in my list of people I should get into, but he´s done sooooo much it´s hard to figure out where to start. Also; Sonic Youth is first in line at the moment.
Still, he´s funny, I remember when I was a young, small Kas I saw him being interviewed on the TV. At the end, in responce to something he said the journalist asked "o what *is* it that you do?" and Zappa only replied by slamming some key somewhere in his studio and this great big noize emerged fade to end-titles. Made a big impression on me. |
Well, i haven't looked at Sonic Youth yet...and not at many others mentioned here regularly, tried Druqcks(?) but weren't able to cope with it (yet?).
| Kassen wrote: |
Live is even worse then other instruments. Not only will you *want* to play alone, it´s even viable and you get to make more noise then the average ensemble.
I have two keyboards and a theremin hooked up to it, B.T.W. |
First Tassman and now i am bit by bit seduced to Live. Guess it is inevitable I will get it sometime. I am thinking to buy a laptop dedicated to music, as an instrument. At first to combine with the G2X as controller. But you mention a theremin as controller, how can it control Live? I thought a theremin is an instrument in its own?
| Kassen wrote: |
But I don´t hate keyboardists, |
I know, i am teasing you, shouldn't do that, sorry
| Kassen wrote: |
the only thing I ever complained about was that all the world was asumed to be one by synth manifacturers. Keyboard manifacturers are to blame as much as the average person playing keyboard solos in Marilion (now there´s some guitar-envy!). Did you ever notice all keyboard presets are expected to come with velocity sensitivity, pitchbend and modulation? Even harpsichord presets have those. This is silly. If it were my harpsichord there would be modulation posibilities for instrument size or pick stuffness but NOOOOOOOOOO, it has to go "WHEEEE". Silly people. |
Agreed. And the pitchbend range on ALL presets is a semitone. Why? Cause that's the interval guitarist use the most in bending. They can't bend any further witout the use of a whammy bar.
Now i do like harpsichords with whammy bars. I have once long long ago tried to make a whammy bar on a hohner clavinet. It killed the poor instrument and cured me from doing this stuff...
| kassen wrote: |
Speaking of my crusade against keyboards, did you perchance see I demonstrated how to make your own arpegiator in Tassman in the user library on their site? It´s a tricky little thing, some keyboardist who wanted to go beyond the average could extend it in order to have slides as a part of the patern and so on because it´s all inside of the patch. Now THAT will teach those guitar players, use your modwheel to determine the amount of slide instead of having to go "WHEEEE" manually, you could include a little bit of programing to even have a synthtec version of "nails over strings" sounds. For only two voices it could actually be ported to the G2, given some extra thinking. |
Yes i have seen it, but i haven't got the time yet to explore it. It looked rather ingenious to me. But the guitarists i know will not be impressed with anything coming from a synth;)
I am still strumbeling through the manual with Tassman, it is vast and a lot to explore. But i will eventually catch on with this stuff. My pace is limited though, i've got very much other things to care for besides music.
| Kassen wrote: |
Having fun is fine, but do fill in the requirered forms when you are done.
:¬p |
Check
Cheque?
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Wan wrote: |
Well, i haven't looked at Sonic Youth yet...and not at many others mentioned here regularly, tried Druqcks(?) but weren't able to cope with it (yet?).
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Sonic Youth moved from No Wave (as in NYC obnoxious guitar-mutilating hardcore art-noise) to rather pleasant popmusic. In the pop vein I like "sunday" which happens to be freely available in mp3 from their website.
Druqckqckqusczz has to stand out as one of the few albums that make use of both prepared piano and distorted 303. I´m sure it will go down in history as a landmark because of this. The millionx12" record box doesn´t fit anywhere though and I can´t make sense of the titles either.
| Kassen wrote: |
But you mention a theremin as controller, how can it control Live? I thought a theremin is an instrument in its own? |
Well, Rob made one for me; it outputs a voltage that the NM´s "control pedal" input translates into a MIDI cc for me. Looks good on stage :¬).
| Kassen wrote: |
Agreed. And the pitchbend range on ALL presets is a semitone. Why? Cause that's the interval guitarist use the most in bending. They can't bend any further witout the use of a whammy bar.
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I want a slide bass. Erm, and I want a decade to learn to play it.... Max range for pitchbend is often 3 semitones which is kinda o.k. if you like minor scales, I wonder what the cheerfull people of this world do.
Still, you can just amp up the signal in a modular, the resolution is there...
You can also make a mutant form of portamento, then controll the amount of that. that´s sorta o.k. if you can play that in realtime or have the chance to sequence it out.
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Now i do like harpsichords with whammy bars. I have once long long ago tried to make a whammy bar on a hohner clavinet. It killed the poor instrument and cured me from doing this stuff...
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Two words;
String Studio.
Marc-Piere and his crew made it especially for the ten people in the world who wanted a whamy bar on a clavinet. I think there is even a clavinet preset in it already. There is a free demo. I have no stock in it but they did propmise me a t-shirt :¬).
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Yes i have seen it, but i haven't got the time yet to explore it. It looked rather ingenious to me.
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It´s a exceedingly tricky affair, if I do say so myself.
It got a lot of downloads (more then some of the "official" stuff) and then nobody contacted me about it. I offered to answer questions on the board too. Perhaps I should just make a version of it that´s actually usable myself because I think I scared away most Tassman users. Sadly Tassman users tend not to be into realy tricky stuff :¬(.
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But the guitarists i know will not be impressed with anything coming from a synth;) |
I think with Tassman or String Studio it´s quite possible to record a file and lie about it´s origins, then have them freak out when you bring in the laptop. String studio can be so believable it´s almost scary.
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I am still strumbeling through the manual with Tassman, it is vast and a lot to explore. But i will eventually catch on with this stuff. My pace is limited though, i've got very much other things to care for besides music.
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The manual doesn´t even cover all of it and I think I found some errors in it too. You should see my version; it´s a printout and it´s covered in remarks. Most of it is quite straightforward but it can get nasty at times. In some areas you can go much further then with the Clavias but none of that is documented anywhere and if some feedback loops goes out of controll it tends to take not only the output but also the cpu with it which anoys me.
We also urgently need cv-capable meters and leds and stuff for debugging. I think Tassman5 will be quite nice.........
Throw me a line if you run into trouble.
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I hate that crap.
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mosc
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:39 am Post subject:
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Reading Zappa's statements about the pitch bend inspired me to play my G2 with the pitchstick set up like WAN uses it, with a ten octave range.
Zappa loved to bull shit people. I think he had a hobby of seeing what ridiculous things he could say and still be treated seriously.
My favorite story about Zappa is that when the Czech Republic was established in the 80s, the Reagan adminstration told their new President, Václav Havel, that the US government would send them any experts and technical experts they wanted to help set up their new society. President Havel requested only one person, Frank Zappa. The US government relucatantly paid Zappa to visit the Czech Republic. To me, that was the high point of the Reagan adminstration.
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Wan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Kassen wrote: |
Well, Rob made one for me; it outputs a voltage that the NM´s "control pedal" input translates into a MIDI cc for me. Looks good on stage :¬).
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Now that is a nice move from Rob. Did he build the complete theremin or did he mod an existing one? I mean, i didn't know Rob was also into building theremins.
| Kassen wrote: |
I want a slide bass. Erm, and I want a decade to learn to play it.... Max range for pitchbend is often 3 semitones which is kinda o.k if you like minor scales, I wonder what the cheerfull people of this world do. . |
No, 3 semitones is way to little. At least an octave, preferably 5.
| Kassen wrote: |
Still, you can just amp up the signal in a modular, the resolution is there...
You can also make a mutant form of portamento, then controll the amount of that. that´s sorta o.k. if you can play that in realtime or have the chance to sequence it out. |
Witch is wat i did in the G2, in the first OS versions the pitchstick response was bad, now since 1.24 they have corrected it. And thus can we amplify the pitchstick response.
| Kassen wrote: |
Two words;
String Studio.
Marc-Piere and his crew made it especially for the ten people in the world who wanted a whamy bar on a clavinet. I think there is even a clavinet preset in it already. There is a free demo. I have no stock in it but they did propmise me a t-shirt :¬). |
Aargh. I have the SS demo up and running and the sound is beautifull. But i can't find the pitchbend range parameter, and the range is stuck at a SEMITONE 
I have put out a question on the AAS String Studio forum, but have had no reply so far. Do you happen to know how to alter the range?
| Kassen wrote: |
It´s a exceedingly tricky affair, if I do say so myself.
It got a lot of downloads (more then some of the "official" stuff) and then nobody contacted me about it. I offered to answer questions on the board too. Perhaps I should just make a version of it that´s actually usable myself because I think I scared away most Tassman users. Sadly Tassman users tend not to be into realy tricky stuff :¬(. |
No indeed, there is not very much traffic there. As far as i see now you are the only one with "tricky ideas" over there.
| Kassen wrote: |
The manual doesn´t even cover all of it and I think I found some errors in it too. You should see my version; it´s a printout and it´s covered in remarks. Most of it is quite straightforward but it can get nasty at times. In some areas you can go much further then with the Clavias but none of that is documented anywhere and if some feedback loops goes out of controll it tends to take not only the output but also the cpu with it which anoys me. |
Ah, i am working on it. I do have printed it out and now i am reading it through the first time. But maybe i should hardcopy your version and get the remarks 
i did a feedback test once now (osc into mix into out into mix). The reaction is totally different from the G2. There was an uncontrollable howl out of the thing when the fb level got a bit open. So there i have to study a bit more. Didn't hang the cpu though
| Kassen wrote: |
Throw me a line if you run into trouble. |
thanks for the offer, i will do
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Wan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: |
My favorite story about Zappa is that when the Czech Republic was established in the 80s, the Reagan adminstration told their new President, Václav Havel, that the US government would send them any experts and technical experts they wanted to help set up their new society. President Havel requested only one person, Frank Zappa. The US government relucatantly paid Zappa to visit the Czech Republic. To me, that was the high point of the Reagan adminstration. |
Hey nice story, Howard. I knew that Vaclav Havel was a fan of Zappa but didn't knew he had actually got him there on behalf of the US government.
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seraph
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | President Havel requested only one person, Frank Zappa. |
I didn't know that!
 read more
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Wan wrote: | | Now that is a nice move from Rob. Did he build the complete theremin or did he mod an existing one? I mean, i didn't know Rob was also into building theremins. |
Well, I had him seen us a doefer theremin antenna like that so I asked him wether he could build me a stand-alone one. It´s based on the same chip doefer uses but it´s just one little box. internal power suply, calibration knob and two leds, one output, that´s all. I think he borrowed (sections?) of doufer´s board but I´m not sure. Those chips are running out too.
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No, 3 semitones is way to little. At least an octave, preferably 5.
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All on one little pitch stick? and staying somewhat in tune?
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Witch is wat i did in the G2, in the first OS versions the pitchstick response was bad, now since 1.24 they have corrected it. And thus can we amplify the pitchstick response.
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The problem is that for the portamento sollution realtime isn´t fast enough. I sequenced real slides out a few times after I was inspired by trying to play (fretted) bass but it takes a lot of time to get it all right, particularly when chords are involved.
| Kassen wrote: |
Aargh. I have the SS demo up and running and the sound is beautifull. But i can't find the pitchbend range parameter, and the range is stuck at a SEMITONE
I have put out a question on the AAS String Studio forum, but have had no reply so far. Do you happen to know how to alter the range?
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Hmm, Eric should take care of that, I´ll contact him if he doesn´t.
In the meantime I´ll look into it, that one realy needs a fix if you are right.
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No indeed, there is not very much traffic there. As far as i see now you are the only one with "tricky ideas" over there.
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There are a few others. I think Deadbeat was trying to do grains and there was one guy who´s name escapes me who emulated U.A.´s looping envelopes.
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i did a feedback test once now (osc into mix into out into mix). The reaction is totally different from the G2. There was an uncontrollable howl out of the thing when the fb level got a bit open. So there i have to study a bit more. Didn't hang the cpu though
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No, that should be fine, the problem is when you have feedbackloops on cv things that aren´t tweaked for ballance yet. If those run amock then it suddenly takes a metric million% cpu time. I suspect this may be a issue with the engine rescaling the parameters to larger ranges or something.
You can run into this if you try recursion or sympathetic resonance, it´s not a major issue but it makes tuning hard at times. Every system has this problem; unballanced loops aren´t realy usefull but in most systems you get a loud click or something and in Tassman you also get a load of cpu strain. Not too many people will run into it, I suspect and fixing it would probably go at the expense of parameter range so I try and be carefull with my loops and leave it at that.
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thanks for the offer, i will do |
Cool. We´ll draw diagrams on napkins and pretend to be mad scientists.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject:
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I checked it and you are completely right. This needs fixing.
I think it may have been killed when they also decided there would be no velocity curves, reasoning those were included in modern keyboards. That kinda sucks if you like the Emu Launchpad which is a perfect if exentric little controler except for realy low velocity. Grumble.
Perhaps it would be nice to have a patch or intrument that would retrigger the same voices if the new notes are extremely close to where the old ones were bended to, then ignore the pitch bend untill it´s back to zero. That would enable slide-bass style moves in real time fairly easily. What do you think? Programing the chord analysis would be a female dog, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:47 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | Zappa's career as an international trade
ambassador was over nearly as fast as it had begun. |
That figures. Anyhow, that web page is just something that's documented after 15 or 20 years. I am reporting more reliable rumors of the time remembered after 15 or 20 years. It was a well-circulated story. Zappa was mythical while he was alive, not just among the Czechs. .
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Wan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:12 am Post subject:
Re: Zappa hates Wan! ;¬) |
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| Kassen wrote: |
Well, I had him seen us a doefer theremin antenna like that so I asked him wether he could build me a stand-alone one. It´s based on the same chip doefer uses but it´s just one little box. internal power suply, calibration knob and two leds, one output, that´s all. I think he borrowed (sections?) of doufer´s board but I´m not sure. Those chips are running out too. |
Wow. That's a nice controller than. I am looking to alternative controllers that appeal to me and a theremin might be one of them. I want to play one to try it out, but they aren't available in my neighborhood. They are rather expensive, at least the moog one, so it isn't an impulse buy for me. As impulse buy i am trying melodicas at the moment. Going to put it through the G2 also, but first learn to play them a bit.
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All on one little pitch stick? and staying somewhat in tune?
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Yes, all on the pitch stick. If you don't touch it it stays in tune rather well. And i have made some patches where the depth is controlled by the pitchstick itself, so it bends incremetally giving a large area where the bend isn't that extreme. With the new OS i like the pitchstick a lot. I am also learning to play with it, i am comming from a wheel for pitchbend so it is a new adaption for me.
| Quote: |
The problem is that for the portamento sollution realtime isn´t fast enough. I sequenced real slides out a few times after I was inspired by trying to play (fretted) bass but it takes a lot of time to get it all right, particularly when chords are involved. |
Don't quite understand what you're trying to achieve with this?
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There are a few others. I think Deadbeat was trying to do grains and there was one guy who´s name escapes me who emulated U.A.´s looping envelopes. |
I will look into these, thanks.
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No, that should be fine, the problem is when you have feedbackloops on cv things that aren´t tweaked for ballance yet. If those run amock then it suddenly takes a metric million% cpu time. I suspect this may be a issue with the engine rescaling the parameters to larger ranges or something.
You can run into this if you try recursion or sympathetic resonance, it´s not a major issue but it makes tuning hard at times. Every system has this problem; unballanced loops aren´t realy usefull but in most systems you get a loud click or something and in Tassman you also get a load of cpu strain. Not too many people will run into it, I suspect and fixing it would probably go at the expense of parameter range so I try and be carefull with my loops and leave it at that.
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I haven't run into this (yet). What i did experience is that when i use pitchbend (with a large range) on the multimode modules the cpu% is increased by a factor 3. It can than go from 25% to 75% for the same number of voices. I don't quite understand why this happens. Maybe this has a similar cause?
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Cool. We´ll draw diagrams on napkins and pretend to be mad scientists. |
Pretend? 
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Grtz Wan |
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Wan
Joined: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: 259
Location: Netherlands, Ugchelen
Audio files: 4
G2 patch files: 46
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:19 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | I checked it and you are completely right. This needs fixing. |
Yes indeed it does, it is a Unique Buying Reason for me.
[edit]
Eric Thibault reacted on my message on the AAS forum. There is a pitchbend range parameter in String Studio after all. So i tried String Studio with it and have bought it.
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| Quote: | I think it may have been killed when they also decided there would be no velocity curves, reasoning those were included in modern keyboards. That kinda sucks if you like the Emu Launchpad which is a perfect if exentric little controler except for realy low velocity. Grumble.
Perhaps it would be nice to have a patch or intrument that would retrigger the same voices if the new notes are extremely close to where the old ones were bended to, then ignore the pitch bend untill it´s back to zero. That would enable slide-bass style moves in real time fairly easily. What do you think? Programing the chord analysis would be a female dog, but.... |
I think it would be a nice feature, but also i think it is very difficult if at all possible to implement. Now i am not an implementor, so they may see it as a challenge. Go for it!
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Grtz Wan |
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Kassen
Janitor
Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:46 am Post subject:
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Wll, I could do that patch for monophonic instruments with not too much trouble, chords are harder but not impossible.
I reacted to your post there too, b.t.w., gave Eric some explanations because frankly I find the Clavinet story to be very funny indeed.
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