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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Anyone know of a DIY multiplier
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject: Anyone know of a DIY multiplier Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking to build a multiplier. At least I think thats what its called.
Input a signal and it splits the same signal into 2, 3, 4 etc.

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jkn



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not sure if you're looking for a divider or a multiple... here's a few options:

Ken Stone's CGS designs:

Master Divider: http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs22_master_divider.html

Pulse Divider and Boolean Logic: http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs36_pulse_divider.html

Saw Pitch Shifter/Wave Multiplier (I doubt this is what you mean...): http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs38_saw_pitch_shift.html

Check out all of his designs: http://www.cgs.synth.net/

....

Larry Hendry has an interesting design for a multiple... a "magic bus" integrated into the cabinet: http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/magic/magic.htm

....
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Macaba



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.musicfromouterspace.com/analogsynth/cvdistributor.html
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone know of a DIY multiplier Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wild Zebra wrote:
Looking to build a multiplier. At least I think thats what its called.
Input a signal and it splits the same signal into 2, 3, 4 etc.


Zebra,

I told you that you should of gone bananas!!

At least the MFOS version is buffered- but then that takes away the chaos factor :(
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks guys those are all sweet looking modules> I'll try to make myself more clear. I think what I'm looking for is alot more simple. I wish I knew the company of my friends, anyway. Lets just say I came up with a patch and then I want to run this patch, straight output into a "multiplier", this would be one input. It would just split the signal lets saw into 4(outputs) identical signals. Then I could run one through a delay to mixer, one to a distortion pedal to mixer, one to filter etc. You get what I'm saying. Thanks, some of those modules are real cool. I'd like to get Ken Stones passive ring mod for my Sounlab.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Do you mean a multiple?

A multiple is just 4 jacks (more or less is possible) that are wired together. Plug a signal into one jack and it is available for routing from the other jacks.

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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So no fancy caps or resistors. Just split the input jack into several outputs and voila. Great. Thanks
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deknow



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm not an expert, but i think the passive multiple scheme (that howard suggested) assumes that the inputs you are going to plug these multiples into are buffered. buffering will prevent any (or some) of the inputs from dragging things down. this is generally done with 2 inverting opamp stages (although i'm sure there is a way to use transistors instead). i'm not familliar with the soundlab archetecture, so i don't know if those inputs (or others you might use) will be buffered or not.

deknow
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hmmmm

thanks I'm going to have to call my friend who has one
and find out who makes it then maybe I could shed more
light on this topic

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looking at the schematics, the Sound Lab outputs shouldn't mind outputs being routed to multiple inputs. This is a very standard modular synthesizer thing to do. I wouldn't worry too much about buffering inputs. Most have at least 100K input resistance which won't load done the outputs even if you route to 4. I remember people used to build "mult boxes" because you could never have too many multiples. My Moog Modular came with 4 four-way multiples.
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc I think your talking bout what I'm talking bout. I guess I should of said DIY Multiple like this http://www.synthtech.com/motm910.html
but it doesn't have to cascade. Is this just as simple as having 1 input
and connnecting the hot to 4 outputs and daisychain the grounds?

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is a passive device, there is no electronic circuitry. There is a normalized jack on each of the lower three quads. Thus, if you don't plug anything into the jacks that the arrows are pointing to, then the mulitiple will be a 1 IN to 11 OUT.

Don't cascade the grounds, just connect them all together.

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wild Zebra wrote:
I'll try to make myself more clear.


Zebra, yes I know exactly what you are talking about. You may do it either passively or actively. Banana plugs make it very easy to do- but that will always be passive, but as mosc pointed out, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. But what you will probably need is to have your signals all at line level if you want a decent signal- and for them to be heard.

If I think what you mean by Ken Stone's passive RM, then it's the one with 2 transformers and a handful of diodes? Correct me if I'm wrong. I too have built one of these circuits and they tend to need a lot of drive to get them working (just checked his site- yup it's the same diode design. Not unique to Mr Stone I may add. This design harps back a few years or more- a lot more infact. This design is the same design used to make Dr Who's Dalek sound/ voice. I also believe that Electro Harmonix used them in their 'Frequency Analyser' pedals in the 60's).
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Y'all, I probably won't bother with trying to cascade, I'll probably just do a simple 1 in 4 or 5 out for starters. Sorry for all the confusion. I knew it had to be pretty simple. v-un-v would it be easier-simpler-cheaper to just make a passive ring mod like Ken Stones,
are there any layouts floating around?

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zebra,

just been looking at KS's website again. My Ring Mod was made with 1N1914's if my memory serves me right. It's pretty easy to build one on veroboard too (stripboard). KS's design uses germanium diodes- as used in old crystal sets. I haven't seen this before- and this is now interesting me because the AD633 is so expensive.

On the track 'drifting' by Tom Dissevelt there is this wonderful ring-modulator tone that I have never been able to get on a modern ring modulator. Perhaps this was done with an original circuit? It was written in 1961-62.

I'll dig my ring mod out and get a photo up.

The circuit on Ken Stone's site is also correct. The transformers you will be able to get from Radio Shack (Oh I miss TANDY!- yes we have Maplin's but nothing in Maplin has "Realistic" written on it!!). I reckon ebay for some old diodes- or if your'e flushed, Ken Stone's pre assembled version :)
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Picture (resized in photoshop this time!) Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This was my take on the passive ring mod. Notice the 2.2µF caps- probably for decoupling.


Ring Modulator.jpg
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Ring Modulator.jpg


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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks v-un-v
You think its nescessary to have the matched germaniums? I saw some on ebay for 20 dollars. If so seems like the 30 bucks is not bad. How's
yours sound? Do you have the layout? Doesn't seem like that would be to hard to make, I probably have all the parts except 1 transformer.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This one sounds quite rough. I've played stylophone through one input and and MS-20 through the other. It was rough beleive me :)

The original circuit was by the geezer who used to run Orgon systems back in the 90's. I'll send a photo of the rear side if you want?

But if you made KS's germainium version- we could do a comparison mp3 shootout! what do you reckon?? That would be a lot of fun :D

others could make a judgement to what version they thought sounded best?

need to sleep 4 now

Tom :)
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These passive ciruits will have a lot of signal leak through and distortion. They won't be accurate multipliers. Still, they can be musically interesting and useful.

I think Germanium diodes would be better than silicon diodes. All semiconductor diodes have something called a forward breakdown voltage. Engineers call this VBE. This is a minimum voltage that must be applied before the diodes turn on. It means that the signals going through the diode will be reduced by VBE. The VBE for silcon is 0.7 volts whereas for germanium it is only 0.3 volts.

The AD630 chips are sophisticated accurate multiplers that have been laser trimed on an automated test set to have very little signal leakage. Leakage is what gets through when one of the inputs is grounded. Ideally the output should be zero. I have built several ring modulators using the older 530 chips. These are beautiful sounding.

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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: another avatar? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zebra, a new avatar? It looks like 2 Smurfs in a board meeting on Acid! please explain :)

I hate that word 'avatar'. I just keep getting a picture of some 70's dude wearing a tank-top and playing guitar infront of an antiquated Arp guitar synth!!
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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Razz I can't believe you guessed it!! No its two stuffed swampthing dolls
shitting on a (closed) toilet with a little solarize filter via photoshop. Heres a bigger one. Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
Incidentaly I was quite a smurfs fan. When I was little I had tons of the pvc figures and have since started to buy some here and there.

Hows this for an avatar add http://www.synthfool.com/images/avatarart.jpg
I reckon when I get a little money I might just buy one of Ken Stone RM's

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

WZ, I made a simple edit to your post so your picture shows in the post. I just used the IMG tag. You can use the edit function to see what I did.

I'm a fan of the Smufs too, BTW. smurfin smurf bigsmurf

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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks mosc I did that first, but wasn't sure if it was kosher. I've never mentioned it before, but I grew up in PA. Till I was about 12 I lived in Cressona pop. about 1500(You know of it?). It was very nice The old Blue Mountains, then I lived in Pottsville for a few years. I really miss it sometimes it was really perty. It seems like the Smurfs might still be quite popular overseas. I had a friend who did a little jaunt a while back and brought me a Smurfs book, a figurine, and some gummi candies. I was very pleased.

la la lalala la

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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Small world. I'm not a Pennsylvania native, but I have been to both Cressona and Pottsville.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

http://www.city-data.com/city/Cressona-Pennsylvania.html

A few years ago I went on a solo motorcycle trip up hiway 61 on a tour of the devastated areas from the strip mining operations. I went up to Centrailia, the town on top of a mine fire.

Even with these human-made blighted areas, Pennsylvania is indeed a very beautiful place.

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Wild Zebra



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeh, I guess I forgot about all the strip mining. My granpa was a miner whom I never met onna count he died from blacklung. I can recall now some of the landscape and how it looked due to the mining, kinda sad.
Guess just being a kid you don't notice that stuff, thats for grown ups.
Solo motorcycle trip, now thats something I always wanted to do if I go back and visit. I need to get a motorcycle first and I better hurry before I don't recognize anything anymore.

Males: 822 (50.3%), Females: 813 (49.7%)
wow those are tuff odds what happened to 4-1

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