electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
go to the radio page Live at electro-music.com radio 1 Please visit the chat
poster
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
What makes a synth a "modular"?
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 3 [56 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: What makes a synth a "modular"? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Or, by extension, what is modular synthesis?

I think this is a much harder question then it seems at first. In some cases like a Moog modular it´s quite clear; there are seperate, clearly defined, modules that you can add or remove and you can interconect them. But what about a EMS sinthy? There are seperate modules there too but you can´t add or remove those; just change the wirering. Is the sinthy realy that different from machines based on matrix modulation such as a Matrix1000 with a sysex editor? Sure; matrix synthesisers generally don´t enable you to make all possible conections but then again; neither do Buchla´s and even in the NM and G2 you are quite limited if you want to patch from the "fx" section into the "voice" area. Are the Nord´s realy modulars or are they normal synths that enable you to work in a modular way? After all; you aren´t realy adding any modules at all; it´s all imaginary.

Where do people draw the line? What is important? Am I the only one who started out thinking "modular" refered to "modulation"?

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: What makes a synth a "modular"? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Where do people draw the line? What is important? Am I the only one who started out thinking "modular" refered to "modulation"?


There are billions of people on Earth. Based on the law of large numbers I'm sure you aren't the only one who thought that. Laughing

I started my electronic music work on Moog and Buchla modulars. In those systems the user interconnected the modules on a patch board in any way they wished. For the most part, you couldn't choose which modules were on the board or how they were arranged - that was a one-time thing when the system was ordered or designed. The Nord Modulars and some other systems take modular synthesis one step farther by allowing you to choose which modules, how many and where they are placed on the board. In this respect, the NM and others are more modular than the originals.

Some of the other synths you mention offer some control over the interconnection, but it is more limited. I wouldn't consider an Arp 2600, Prophet 5/10 or a Minimoog a modular synth, but they have a lot in common with them - substractive synthesis, and voltage control. Some of the modulation matrixes that approach N X N interconnection are truly modular synthesizers.

In the final analysis, is there much need to quibble over terms?

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, quibeling over terms is one thing but contemplating the nature of things is another. I´m not realy interested in quibeling over terms here; the direction I was looking for here is the question what makes these things "modular" and what it is about this that we like so much, hoping to find this property in other things too.

I don´t think, for example, that filters are realy nesicary for a modular to be modular. You could have a system based on only oscilators and envelopes and interconect those. If you´d base a (rather monotonous) Serge layout on that you´d call it a "modular" while on a purely functional level it might be identical to a DX7 which I´m not realy inclinced to call a "modular" even if I can´t quite define why.

I have some suspicion that there´s a large factor of interface involved.

See where I´m going? Some cases are clear-cut, others, like the 2600 more grey yet even if we disagree over the line we all have some idea about what is a "modular" and I´m wondering what that idea is, how it may differ between people and what it is that draws us to it. I´m more interested in comparing definitions then in figuring out which one is the "real" one.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I have some suspicion that there´s a large factor of interface involved.


This is an interesting discussion. I am not sure we will be able to pull out a decent definition of the term, but then we all kinda know already what an modular synth is? Or do we? A large part of this relies on ideology rather than a fixed hardware design.

An obvious improvement these days are all these new modular synth software apps that allow users to create new modules as well as meta modules. I don´t think there is a fixed set in stone modular synth design. Whatever is useful will do just fine. I agree with you re that DX 7. That one was a modular synth without a proper interface.

The modern DAW can also be seen as a part of a new nonlinear modular synth.. which is more a vision than a shrinkwrapped product.. but still useful. Midi allows control signals to pass between plugins and whatever and a complex patch involving software apps, audio tracks, crazy routings of signal and control data is still a patch and in my opinion even more modular as such than what you could ever do on the ARP 2600 or the Roland S100s.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
jksuperstar



Joined: Aug 20, 2004
Posts: 2503
Location: Denver
Audio files: 1
G2 patch files: 18

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm drawn to the fact that *in general*, modular means flexible. And to me, flexiblty means the designer left enough room in control, interface, interconnection, etc -- for me to do what I want. Understand, I don't always know what I want, and sometimes that flexibility helps me find it by accident. And there are limitations, as there has to be with anything in this universe, but that's fine. Flexibility to me doesn't mean everything & anything, just flexible "enough". Don't ask me to define "enough" however, since that changes daily, and sometimes more often than that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is not a definition, but i always thought of a modular synth as one where a guitar pedal or other device can be patched in at any point in the signal chain (audio or control). one of the things that attracted me to the g2 was the 4 ins and outs. the ability to work "outside" the synth as well as within it is, i think, important to the modular concept.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: What makes a synth a "modular"? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Am I the only one who started out thinking "modular" refered to "modulation"?

I would guess modular refers to (hardware or software) synth modules that can be patched together by (real or virtual) cables Idea

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
this is not a definition, but i always thought of a modular synth as one where a guitar pedal or other device can be patched in at any point in the signal chain (audio or control). one of the things that attracted me to the g2 was the 4 ins and outs. the ability to work "outside" the synth as well as within it is, i think, important to the modular concept.

deknow


Yes, that´s a important element to me too, but it´s realy more in the aditude then in anything else; just the other day I was doing this with a Electribe EA-1 which I think we´ll agree isn´t a modular synth. Many of the tracks that sound typically "Moog" were done by feeding one of the two Minimoog outputs back into the input.

If the additude is so important and we know what modular synthesis means, would it perhaps be best to say that a synth is a modular if it´s designed speciffically to cater to people who aproach instruments in this way?

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21959
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
If the additude is so important and we know what modular synthesis means, would it perhaps be best to say that a synth is a modular if it´s designed speciffically to cater to people who approach instruments in this way?


Why not? This seems even more reasonable than actually making some kind of list of features.

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
...a DX7 which I´m not realy inclinced to call a "modular" even if I can´t quite define why.

you can't say why the DX7 is not a modular? it seems quite simple to answer this question: you can not change the signal path beyond a limited extent, it's not as "flexible" as modular synths. That, of course, doesn't mean you can't come up with outstanding sounds.

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Kassen is saying it is NOT a modular synth. I agree. I would say very unmodular.
_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
Kassen wrote:
...a DX7 which I´m not realy inclinced to call a "modular" even if I can´t quite define why.

you can't say why the DX7 is not a modular?

I rephrase my question:
you can not define why the DX7 is not a modular?

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mosc
Site Admin


Joined: Jan 31, 2003
Posts: 18195
Location: Durham, NC
Audio files: 211
G2 patch files: 60

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

you can't say why the DX7 is not a modular?
you can not define why the DX7 is not a modular?

You can't say or not define why either of the above is a question? Twisted Evil

_________________
--Howard
my music and other stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes he can't!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
yes he can't!

who Question Shocked

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, i don't consider a minimoog or an electribe as a modular synth (there are ins and outs, but the source/destination of these is fairly fixed). an electribe used with a bunch of guitar pedals probably is....it's certainly "modular synthesis" to use such a system.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I think there are some profoundly "modular" sides to the DX7. For one thing; I´d call "operator" a module. THe fact that you can route in quite versatile ways between them is obfuscated by the fact that they are all the same, but a lot of routing is possible. I also think that the concept of using the same kind of structure for both directly generating sound and modulating other sounds is quite modular in nature.

I said I didn´t call the DX7 a modular, but I also tried to imply this was purely because of how it apears and how you relate to it. When push comes to shove I think a definition of a "software modular" may well include the DX7.

That´s not all that surprising because fm synthesis has it´s roots in software-based modular synthesis so it´s only natural that some of that seeped through.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
neonleg



Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: melbourne australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello! in my narrow opinion Wink i would consider a modular synthesizer to be one which has individual voltage patch points in and out to access voltages and or modify from an external source, all available sonicly useful variable components. modular synthesis, however could be accomplished within a digital synthesizer or some analogue one via complete user customisable internal patching ie. G2 or other synth with control matrix ie. ETI international 4600. personly i wont buy a G2 until the day they make the individual modules able to send or recieve control voltages from an external user programmable patch bay. that would really be something!
heres a pic of my *semi modular* arp avatar, just to confuse things Smile

[editor's note: I srunk your picture. Please, let's keep pictures no more than 700 pixels wide. Thanks... --Mosc]


s2010036small.jpg
 Description:
Arp synth
 Filesize:  138.59 KB
 Viewed:  16906 Time(s)

s2010036small.jpg



Last edited by neonleg on Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
personly i wont buy a G2 until the day they make the individual modules able to send or recieve control voltages from an external user programmable patch bay

well, with a midi/cv and cv/midi converter you can do all that. i can't speak for everyone, and i know several g2 owners that do own huge ammounts of modular gear, but for me, one of the big advantages of the g2 is that it is much smaller than any comprable hardware modular system.

in fact, on the true analog side, a simple envelope follower and/or pitch to cv converter would allow exactly what you are asking for (as the g2 has both of these, you would only need to have them on the hardware side). if you have both a pitch to cv and envelope follower, each of the outs from the nord can easily transmit 2 channels of "cv" (pitch and volume), and the 4 ins can each have both pitch and amplitude.

personally, despite a few issues, i find the nord to be complete enough that i don't feel the need to start interfacing it with my other gear (both midi and cv/gate). in most cases, if you can't do it with the g2, interfacing with an arp, or buchla for that matter, won't really help. there are limitations, there are exceptions...but for the most part, i can't think of much within 10x the price of a g2 that can cover the bases it does.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
neonleg



Joined: Jul 10, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: melbourne australia

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

right.. its possible, i guess i just imagined a nice red box with heaps of patch points and many converters tightly integrated with the software. agreed the G2 is a complete package and probably dosent need this functionality. admittedly i havnt used the G2 but i have owned a micro-modular in the past. i find working on the screen fatiguing and much prefer working with real analogues. it would be fun to own a G2 and be able to cross modulate analogue and digital 'modular' synthesizers tho.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Neonleg (and others!).

You are concentrating on freely routable CV and on the extend to which relevant parameters can send and receive it. I think that´s fine but isn´t it too limiting to "demand" CV instead of a more general concept of flowing information?

From those perspectives I think you could considder Csound a more fully modular system. Csound is at least as modular as anything else if we stress your demand for all parameters to accept modulation; Csound accepts variables instead of any definable parameter which instantly enables modulation to that parameter. In a way that means a knob and a input jack are equivalent in that system. From that perspective demanding CV feels a little artificial to me.

I´m not trying to sell Csound to you, I´m trying to explore this difference in relating to modulation where you seem to stress the physical presence of the connection (in the form of a cable or perhaps a matrix) while I think I feel more attached to the flow of information on a conceptual level.

One advantage of physical connections is that they guarantee you can "play" the way modules are connected, for example by rithmically plugging and unpluging a connection. Digital modulars tend not to like this; the G2 will recompile every time you do this, the NM is fine with it and (for example) Tassman doesn´t even allow you to touch the cables while outputting sound.

I think these are fundamental differences depending on how you relate to your system, you are right in pointing out that in interfacing to the rest of the world the G2 has limitations compared to the more "classial" image of a modular (in adition of cource to tremendoes advantages!) but to me one of the largest limitations of the G2 and something that stands in shrill contrast to what I think of as a modular is the inability to add modules tot he system. If you don´t like what Doefer offers in terms of delays you are free to modify a Serge delay module and add it to your system. With the G2 (or any other commercial digital modular) you can´t design or add your own, at least not on the same level as the given material. What we haven´t yet discussed at all is the sense of collecting and building which to many seems to be a important part of their hobby.

The section of "building blocks" here seems to add that aspect to the G2 to some degree but the lack of definition a the border between those "modules" and the rest of the patch may harm the feeling of "owning" a new module. Tassman has a interesting solution there with it´s "sub patches" that apear to the user as stand-alone modules when patching. I think Reactor has a similar concept. Interestingly in this there apears to be a oposition between the flow of information and the explicid borders of modules. I can solder a little, code a little too; enough to add usefull little tools to systems I use but when I do this I often add a interface that makes limiting choices in what parameters are open for modification.

The more I think about these questions the less clear it becomes to me what exactly a modular synth is and what I want from it.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I´m not trying to sell Csound to you.

it would be hard to sell it being it freeware Very Happy

arrow http://www.csounds.com/

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

The more I think about these questions the less clear it becomes to me what exactly a modular synth is and what I want from it.

I hope all you want is a nice sounding synth. being it modular or not Exclamation frankly I do not see the point as mosc stated:
Quote:
is there much need to quibble over terms?

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kassen
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
Kassen wrote:

I´m not trying to sell Csound to you.

it would be hard to sell it being it freeware Very Happy

arrow http://www.csounds.com/



I know, I have it installed on three computers here. I don´t use it much, mind you, I just want it to be there.

_________________
Kassen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
seraph
Editor
Editor


Joined: Jun 21, 2003
Posts: 12398
Location: Firenze, Italy
Audio files: 33
G2 patch files: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I know, I have it installed on three computers here. I don´t use it much, mind you, I just want it to be there.

you are right, its user interface just stinks Wink

_________________
homepage - blog - forum - youtube

Quote:
Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 3 [56 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » Modular Synthesis
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use