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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
ideas for restructuring the nord forum
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:05 am    Post subject: ideas for restructuring the nord forum Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

1) centralizing the main discussion..One forum for NM 1 and G2 with list integration... So all discussion in one place..two user interfaces...
people can choose if they want it by mail or browse manually..
But they browse in one window and find all nord related discussion..there are not so many Nm1 related questions anymore and they are usually answered by the G2 users anyway.

2) patches get send usually in the main forum/list
but automaticaly ( i know..just science fiction;) copied into the archiv forum. Or the other way around maybe its possible that patches and related discussions get displayed aswell in the main discussion and can be answered from there like beeing in the same forum..
patches send to the list will automatical moved to the unsorted folder..or get sorted by sender within the unsorted folder?...difficult
But its important that patches are around within the discussion. They make hanging around in the forum interesting. and help to centralize the discussion. People get motivated or convinced to do a own contribution earlier ..

3) less cattegorys in the archive forum... like "keyboard/instruments" "sequenced" "noodle" "processing" "Sound Fx" "unsorted"..performances and patches mixed... (Instruments and unsorted will be the biggest subs)
specific instruments are easy to find with the search function.

4) (maybe locked) interesting threads forum where just especially valuable information gets displayed..

5) building blocks stays like it is

6) wishlist is also good as a subforum

Just some ideas ..i dont know if such things are possible and dont expect it to be done in that way..but even when it seems to make things more chaotic a higher overview and more discussions might be the result...
Maybeits the same as in european citys where the old chaotic parts often have more communication than the new building areas..
Maybe its good to discuss this item to see what other users would prefer... I at least think that it would be good to bring the Nm users together in one place..but mentain the dynamics of the list.
The Forum in its current form is not a propper list replacement but
the list lacks some advantages of the forum.. Its surely no easy go to try to merge them...but its also a psychological thing..the structure has its fx.
so restructering might improove the thing.. It also can saty like it is..but i see that this wouldnt be the optimal solution... However lots of inspiration around in the forum and the list lately..and this in the summer hole..extraordinary...
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is certainly not meant to frustrate any discussion, but it seems that people do not know very well about the links :

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=newposts

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=lastposts

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=43

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php

which are helpfull links for me in seeing what is going on and what has been going on in the past on the forum. I have these links bookmarked and for me the forum now reads just as easy as the mailing list.

Jan.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
This is certainly not meant to frustrate any discussion, but it seems that people do not know very well about the links :

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=newposts

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=lastposts

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=43

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php

which are helpfull links for me in seeing what is going on and what has been going on in the past on the forum. I have these links bookmarked and for me the forum now reads just as easy as the mailing list.


Jan.


These links certainly help to browse the forum but it is still not like a list..
The dynamik wher one thread morphs to another cantt happen here so good..

look at the thread that was on the list the last days... first it was about the exchange offer from clavia..that turned to patchcompatibility..that turned to NM1 sound versus G2 sound..this turned to the psychoacoustics thread..that was moved to the forum than and just got within the last hour the slight tendency that the thread itself would like to morph again but cant really because its in the drawer now..and people that dont watch that drawer cant help it to morph...was however a long way that leaded to a great contribution from somebody that is probably budhist Wink
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just realize a bit more what makes these list dynamics..while following the beefing up thread in the buildingblocks..
Some words there made me thinking about mailing something about the benefits of mono mixing and the different directional approach in music mixing and movie sound...i however erased the mail because it would have been outtoppic..dont fits in the forum thread and messes it up if people would react on that...
On the list i just would have changed the header and would have opened an active side thread that earlier or later would come back to the NM anyway..and people from the one thread would have handled them in parallel
maybe even somebody would have been provoked to post a patch or so...
On the forum a sidethread would have come to attention of the initial thread participants much later..so earliest reply another day from other people than pushed the ball in the direction of the sidethread.
however..its not important to get a reply but its important to feel free to reflect on an item quickly without "leaving the room"

I stated my personal preference for the list allready but beeing in booth media parrallel is a bit exhausting... Earlier or later the list is probably history. I see a historical demand for the total controled society..big brother is growing... and all mail based activitys are not very good controllable..
Everything thats webbased can be precisly controled.. the logfiles tell exactly what information came to your attention.
This has nothing to do with this comunity but with the future of the information society... So..lists will be the past in the future...before this happens we have to patch the structures of free comunication into the new system. So we have to learn what the benefits are and where the restrictions of the new media are to change the thing around.
Sorry..i am tired..have to go to bed Wink
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sven, I appreciate your suggestions for improving the forum/list technology. You have the best interests of the community at heart, and you have been very supportive personally.

I know this has been mentioned before, but the RSS feed when used in a very good email client like Mozilla Thunderbird (free) will put a new message in your feed folder for every post on the forum in chronological order. It looks very much like a mailing list. I know several people are using this.

We created the separate NM1 forum here because people requested it.

The categories of the patch archive were based on those supplied in the G2 itself.

One suggestion you made really resonates with me:

Quote:
4) (maybe locked) interesting threads forum where just especially valuable information gets displayed..


This presents a question. Who desides what is valuable? What criteria do they use? Well, I think this is a very important concept - everyone should decide for themselves. Editors or moderators have difficulty with this kind of thing. It may be possible for the forum to be modified to have a feature where members can create their own lists of topics of interest - sorta like bookmarks. These should be accessable by the other members. For example 3phase's favoriate G2 patches, or Mosc's favorite schmooze topics. This would make everyone an editor of sorts.

Quote:
2) patches get send usually in the main forum/list
but automaticaly ( i know..just science fiction;) copied into the archiv forum. Or the other way around maybe its possible that patches and related discussions get displayed aswell in the main discussion and can be answered from there like beeing in the same forum..

I thought that is what already happens. I think I'm missing something.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a project to develop software that works to combine forums and mailing lists. See: http://www.mail2forum.com/forums.html

I have been following it over the last two years because it is a worthy objective. At this point, they have something that works, but it does not handle attachments. From what I can tell, this capability won't be there anytime soon. Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Quote:
2) patches get send usually in the main forum/list
but automaticaly ( i know..just science fiction;) copied into the archiv forum. Or the other way around maybe its possible that patches and related discussions get displayed aswell in the main discussion and can be answered from there like beeing in the same forum..

I thought that is what already happens. I think I'm missing something.


I think 3phase means patches should be submitted to the "Nord Modular Discussion" or main forum and from here they get copied to the appropriate category of the "G2 Patches" subforum, or to "Building Blocks", "G2 Performances" etc.

I've seen on other forums where you have to chose a category for your post to be assigned to when you make the post itself. Maybe there could be a separate "Post Patch" button where these categories are mandatory? Then any patch that is posted not only goes to the main discussion but also has a link to it's thread in the "bass" subforum for example.

I really like this idea, because then all the discussion is in one place, but if you need to you can browse the patches (and their corresponding discussion threads) categorically. It's the best of the list world and the forum world. Because there is a hive of activity on the one forum, people feel more willing to participate. The problem of each subforum feeling disconnected from the rest will cease to be a problem. You can also see all the new patches at once (as opposed to every single new thread on the whole em forums). I understand there is a function where you can browse all patches, then sort by date, but it's really unintuitive and looks different and separate from the rest of the site and as such I don't use it much at all.

There will probably be alot of people that won't be a fan of this method because they are already used to the way it works at the moment, but it's at least another option to make the forums more user friendly.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, thanks. These are things that are easier to do than other. This is something I have been planning to do for a while. A link that provides as list of new topics (last week) that are filtered to be in the clavia forums.

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=lastposts&forum_list=clavia

Does this help make the forum seem more like a single list?

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

This presents a question. Who desides what is valuable? What criteria do they use? Well, I think this is a very important concept - everyone should decide for themselves. Editors or moderators have difficulty with this kind of thing. It may be possible for the forum to be modified to have a feature where members can create their own lists of topics of interest - sorta like bookmarks. These should be accessable by the other members. For example 3phase's favoriate G2 patches, or Mosc's favorite schmooze topics. This would make everyone an editor of sorts.


This would work well with the more elaborta profile Electro and me have been thinking about. People who feel so inclined could be a archivist or librarian for a favourite topic by keeping track of the best threads on it. I think in this age of information overdoses becoming routine there is a space for personalised style of archiving.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
OK, thanks. These are things that are easier to do than other. This is something I have been planning to do for a while. A link that provides as list of new topics (last week) that are filtered to be in the clavia forums.

http://electro-music.com/forum/search.php?search_id=lastposts&forum_list=clavia

Does this help make the forum seem more like a single list?


not really..because you dont see the authors of the answers to the thread. But its a usefull add anyway..just not the same amount of information as on a overfilled mail folder.
I ve seen quite a few forums with horrible grafics , pretty basic, but with tree structure.
I think the advantages of a list are not necessarily that its on your mail account, thats comfortable when reading thru old posts because you can do it offline and the loading time is close to zero..just transfer to the nord by clicking on the attachment, quick uploads..that is actually comfortable
but not essentially the only advantage. The advantage of the list is the way how discussions develop...This is still my theorie and the picture gets a bit clearer especially by trying to ride the two horses simultaniously...

In the moment there is discussion in booth media...maybe all of that would have happened on the forum alone if the list would not be there..
But i am not sure about that. the bondarys between the threads must be more transparent..you have to see how a thread is developing and who is posting..that makes the interest to look into a certain thread even when the item dont finds your interest...The number of postings and the last poster is a good indicator..but it dont feels the same..It is still less overview.
The other thing is that its difficult to follow two threads within one window.. There is more about it. I think its worth to investigate ...
I tried to flood the list a bit..but in the same time when there was more trafic on the list there was also the input on the forum rising...seemed to me that the discussion alone triggered a bit more activity.. i cant say that this happned list related..But it happened user related..

How is your forumsoftware designed? Has it a name?
It looks like a prepared structure or have you programmed it yourself?
Can you modify it or is it just arranging you are able to do?
Its pretty useles to think about things that are technical impossible or financially not affordable.. Maybe someone has an idea???
However...more people on the forum or list should think about how to merge list and forum. Maybe somebody can cure the attachments question? The first time the old NM1 format as textfile would have been usefull Wink
..ok..i forgot about my work..studio wireing Wink
so long
Sven
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3phase



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
There is a project to develop software that works to combine forums and mailing lists. See: http://www.mail2forum.com/forums.html

I have been following it over the last two years because it is a worthy objective. At this point, they have something that works, but it does not handle attachments. From what I can tell, this capability won't be there anytime soon. Crying or Very sad


http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZNxdm119&siteid=18600..
Ok..
Its a new world of fun and communikation ...
Maybe not enough people showed demand for mailinglist integration sofar.. It looks like a promessing projekt but without attachments..
maybe still usefull..but better with attachments

php BB..is that the same crowd as behind these php encrypting stuff?

BB is watching you Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
sorry..just joking. But i see that this is the most used BB software wright now..is this wright or are there other important systems?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, the forum is PHPBB. I have personally written a lot of mods to it. I developed the G2 patch archive myself http://electro-music.com/g2patches.php and I wrote the media archive as well. The forum software is open source, but I've added so many mods that electro-music.com is very unique, maybe too much so.

My guess is that the reduction in interest in mailing lists in favor of forums (other than the features and capabilities) is because of the spam problem, and because email lists are server resource hogs. Some people don't join lists because of of the privacy problem. There have been discussions on the NM list about the addresses having been grabbed by spammers, as you know.

For every poster on a forum or a list, there are many more lurkers. It is certainly easier to lurk on forums than lists. I am interested in growing the electro-music community. Lurkers are a very big part of that. Just today we got a patch posted by someone who said he has been lurking for over a year. Very Happy http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-7232.html

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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Yes, the forum is PHPBB. I have personally written a lot of mods to it. I developed the G2 patch archive myself http://electro-music.com/g2patches.php and I wrote the media archive as well. The forum software is open source, but I've added so many mods that electro-music.com is very unique, maybe too much so.

My guess is that the reduction in interest in mailing lists in favor of forums (other than the features and capabilities) is because of the spam problem, and because email lists are server resource hogs. Some people don't join lists because of of the privacy problem. There have been discussions on the NM list about the addresses having been grabbed by spammers, as you know.

For every poster on a forum or a list, there are many more lurkers. It is certainly easier to lurk on forums than lists. I am interested in growing the electro-music community. Lurkers are a very big part of that. Just today we got a patch posted by someone who said he has been lurking for over a year. Very Happy http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-7232.html


I dont mind your mods,,they are nice... I mind the trend to the BB forums. Because they act different...Open source or not..its a new standard in webbased communikation that hides more than it shows.
I see all the advantages from the operational part of it but its not such an information spreading device as the newsgroup structures was.
The Nm list was a bit like an island within this trend..a bit ol fashioned but very agile and on topic in relation to other mailinglists and newsgroups (what is pretty much the same as a mailing list..at least it feels similar).
i came along.
Spam never was a problem.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
I mind the trend to the BB forums. Because they act different...


crucified

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3phase



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
3phase wrote:
I mind the trend to the BB forums. Because they act different...


crucified


I see you are really motivated
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

My guess is that the reduction in interest in mailing lists in favor of forums (other than the features and capabilities) is because of the spam problem, and because email lists are server resource hogs. Some people don't join lists because of of the privacy problem. There have been discussions on the NM list about the addresses having been grabbed by spammers, as you know.


I like fora because they feel like a "place" where you can "hang out". I also like how when you reply to a old discussion the reply is immediately in the right context. It feels more like "going somwhere" then like "people sending stuff to you" and I like that. I also realy like avatars, provided they are some representation of the poster; it gives the whole thing a more personal feel.

After a few years of admining our own little The Hague board I noticed a patern; people who have met in real life rarely get in flame wars. It's my theory that if we could get everybody to use a avatar that represnts them instead of the car they'd like to drive or the girl they'd like to date then there would be less trouble.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I like fora because they feel like a "place" where you can "hang out".


but its a place with 20 rooms...and smal long corridors between them
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:

but its a place with 20 rooms...and smal long corridors between them


yeah, well, I suppose. But for some things those spaces are more suitable then one giant big hall....

I pleaded in favour of restructuring for clarity in the past. The problem is that it's not quite clear what exactly "clartiy" means in every case.

As I understand the matter we *can* restucture but that would mean a lot of work so we'll only do it if the proposal is clearly better then the current situation to a degree that warants the work. This sounds reasonable to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
3phase wrote:

but its a place with 20 rooms...and smal long corridors between them


yeah, well, I suppose. But for some things those spaces are more suitable then one giant big hall....

I pleaded in favour of restructuring for clarity in the past. The problem is that it's not quite clear what exactly "clartiy" means in every case.

As I understand the matter we *can* restucture but that would mean a lot of work so we'll only do it if the proposal is clearly better then the current situation to a degree that warants the work. This sounds reasonable to me.


Every patch shows something of the charackter of the author..
And so it is aswell with a forum structure.
A private server is not really an open structure...its owned by one person.
It´s related to that person..and i dont know what the civil rights status is regarding the ownership of the content on such a private webpage.
However..not so much can happen exept that some discussions get lost...the patches float around anyway and i think all g2 patchers should sign there patches in any case.
There are interesting forums here...just.. half of them was in earlier times one forum..the list...
The archive is a dreadfull place for patchrelated discussion.. I would add some more cattegories like percussion unpitched and drums sequenced to make it a bit more clear...
Its however a place where information is conservated when its not moved to the other forums when the discussion gets out of line..
This situation cant stay forever like it is wright now...
Its to irritating to spread a discussion over two media...
Its really hard to say if what just happens have something to do with list,sunspot or Rob activity...Its certainly not triggered by the forum structures itself...Its more a thing you can learn to live with than a structure that helps to create an open discussion.

So when everybody wants, or accepts the list to die anyway and any change to the current structure is too difficult we should shut the list off wright now or soon and see how things develop without the list. The discussion is widely triggered wright now when there are no changes necessary
it should develop from now fine.

Wright now 100% of the activity is in the forum..2 days ago it was the other way around.
I would have been open for list integration but its not likely to happen as i know now.
The parallel status wright now is too much hazzle to do it forever this way.
featuring the list or allow it to fade away?
Without artificial help the list wont surrive for its own because all the patches are posted to the forum..that drys it out and when its dry it only acts as spam collector. By the way..to bring spam as anti list argument hurts a bit. on 404 there was never any spam...over years..The spam comes via the web interface...not from the list itself.

Last edited by 3phase on Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Spam is blocked by the Mailman email list server software. It blocks all messages not sent from a registered list member. If a spamer starts using a registered user's address, we can take manual action to stop spam from being spread. That's not the spam problem. It is twofold;

1) spamers get addresses from the list and send these people spam. This is what some people have complained about on the NM list.

2) Spamers send stuff the the list's addresses and the server has to deal with those messages.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just found a cool advantage regarding these BBboards...Information can be bend to fit ..you only see that i ve edited this . You have no idea what was written here... Smile)) I also almost forgot..it was about spam...its coming here all out everywhere...They try to grab me...stop it..please stop it....Mosc...no noooo argghhhh ....


biep...... biep......-...
.....sluurrp

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am 200% sure there is not a problem with the server. I think we can end the spam part of the discussion right now.
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1183
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 141

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I am 200% sure there is not a problem with the server. I think we can end the spam part of the discussion right now.


I wouldnt reply...but your avatar just fits the situation so ...
Darth Vader... Shocked
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Kassen
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
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Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="3phase"]
Every patch shows something of the charackter of the author..
And so it is aswell with a forum structure.
A private server is not really an open structure...its owned by one person.
[quote]

Yes and no. There is certainly something to your insights but I also think that to a skilled patcher who has a feel for the material the patch will speak back and will indicate how it wants to be structured. The same holds true for fora.

I think it's great that you are are giving feedback on how you feel it can be imporved; I think all the regulars *should* have a opnion on how it should be and indeed should share their ideas if they have some good ones, this is great. However; if we would implement all ideas that everybody has then there will be a mess. We need some structure to this process and we need to make sure that alternatives are superior to the current state before we start changing and we need to make sure it's worth the work.


Quote:

It´s related to that person..and i dont know what the civil rights status is regarding the ownership of the content on such a private webpage.
However..not so much can happen exept that some discussions get lost...the patches float around anyway and i think all g2 patchers should sign there patches in any case.


This is a excelent point. As far as I'm concered we can immediately proceed setting up some sort of copyright lisence as a default for patches. Something along the lines of "free to use but give credit when redistributing". Individual contributors could add clauses; I could see people having rules along the lines of requesting a copy if a patch is used in a comercial recording for example. I'm quite sure the server owners aren't claiming any copyright to contributions. I for one would welcome your draft on such a "lisence" and any and all discussion on this in general. Copyright is a important topic for discussion in modern culture and I feel we should take modern and progressive stance on this.

Quote:

The archive is a dreadfull place for patchrelated discussion.. I would add some more cattegories like percussion unpitched and drums sequenced to make it a bit more clear...


That may be reasonable too. Let's do some analyis on how many patches this would involve and how great the demand is.

Quote:

This situation cant stay forever like it is wright now...


Nobody is sugesting that it will, right?


Quote:
So when everybody wants, or accepts the list to die anyway and any change to the current structure is too difficult we should shut the list off wright now or soon and see how things develop without the list. The discussion is widely triggered wright now when there are no changes necessary
it should develop from now fine.


I'm not so sure about this. Some people like lists and others like boards, yet others like chatrooms. I think it's generally a good idea to use a medium you feel is suitable for the topic at hand.

I get a sense of despair from your writing style here that I don't think is waranted; we are not dealing with immense, life-threatning issues. Some of your points could be adressed immediately, others could be dealth with with some discussion, some planning and perhaps some changes. I see realy no reason for this tone; sure not all moderation action may have been the best but I'm entirely sure that the intentions behind them *were* the best and I think that matters more.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

3phase wrote:
but your avatar just fits the situation so ...
Darth Vader... Shocked


Nah, close your eyes a little and look again, it+s more like a big cuddely viking teddybear!

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